Muslims - a question about the "wife beating" verse

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
The argument that other peoples used to allow child marriage isn't very convincing. If Delaware or Christianity allowed patricide, we still wouldn't find patricide acceptable.

We need to make every belief system stand on its own, without regard to whatever Delaware or somebody else used to do.

The question is, is child marriage, or isn't it, supported by religious scripture or tradition?

If your interest is in understanding the facts and gaining knowledge, then context is a great benefit. If your interest is creating a "gotcha" in order to be able to say that you won a debate or managed to put a check mark in the win column, then of course stacking the deck in this manner is very helpful.

Those who wish to find religious support for child marriage in Islam can and do find it. So there, you can do your victory dance.

But, many more believe Islam says the exact opposite.

Moreover, the exact same thing is true for Christianity.

I am really curious. Why is this important for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Common sense is not that common and once can not argue with ignorance. Muslim woman here speaking. To the poster who keeps saying that child marriage is common in Islam, i will stop you right there: stop spreading fallacies. Child marriage is not a part of marriage nor is it part of the Sunnah, go and learn what sunnah is about before you start debating/talking about Sunnah .

I was raised in a muslim family, have lived in muslim countries and i have yet to meet a Muslim man who was married to a child . I have learned of cases, but is that the norm? No, just like you hear of cases of child marriage in the US, you will hear cases of child marriage in Muslim communities as well. That has nothing to do with Islam, it is strictly cultural and traditional to those people who tend to practice it and even of the cases I've ever heard of in modern history, the "child" was a teen, not a toddler.

The other thing to note, is most of those marriages do happen in tribal communities and usually just because the marriage is done doesn't mean it is consummated, tribe members will marry their kids but still have them in the household till they reach puberty at which point, they go to the husband's house. This practice can be problematic and is in the eyes of Islam because it is strictly forbidden to marry a woman against her will and that is actually one of the questions asked by the Imam when you get married, he will ask you as a woman if you fully consent and agree to the marriage contract without being coerced by anyone. A forced marriage is not recognized by Islam, is it still practiced by some people? Yes, just like murder is not accepted by any religion but people of all faith still go and kill people.

i also read someone say that after divorce the only recourse of a muslim woman is to go back to her father's house. Again, stop spreading things that you do not know about, just because you read a book or studied next to XYZ, yadidyada doesn't make you the expert on this or even remotely know what you are talking about. Case in point, I am a muslim woman, a Divorced Muslim woman at that and no I never went back to my daddy's house, I live alone. So let me break it down to you so you will get it a bit, a muslim woman has the OPTION not the OBLIGATION ( know the difference?) to go back to her father's house if she is divorced and the father has the OBLIGATION to take her in if she chooses to do so, you know like those options they sell in the stock market why? This was done to protect women, so they will never have to resort to prostitution or homelessness just because they are divorced or single mothers. A muslim woman always has the choice to go back to her parents house and they will have to take care of her if she can't do it on her own.

Now as far as the beloved prophet Muhammad SAW's marriage to Aisha (one of the favorite topics of the critics and haters of Islam ) You have ignored every explanation that Jeff provided as far as context and the time that marriage took place. Did you know that American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in Delaware, the age of consent was only seven? Now during the Prophet saw's time it was a NORM to be married at a young age. This is why the people of Quraish and other Arabian tribes at Prophet's time found absolutely no fault in their marriage. They detested Islam, they did everything to belittle the Prophet, tried to prevent Islam from spreading and even attempted to kill the Prophet! However, they raised no objection to the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha since at those times such a thing was not considered 'immoral'. It ought also be noted that Aisha was engaged to Jubayr before Prophet Muhammed saw. This indicates the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet' saw's time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr's parents due to Abu Bakr (Aisha's dad) embracing Islam.Thus the history demonstrates that the age of the marriage was lower and relative to olden times, the marriage of the Prophet was not abnormal and there was nothing immoral about it. It was a norm at biblical times to be wedded at puberty or earlier, the age of consent one century ago in a 'modern country' was as low as 10 or 12, even 7 in Delaware! Even in our times, in certain societies, the age of consent is as low as 12 or 13. In the light of historical evidences, the marriage cannot be criticized. So Have at it!!! And to believe that Muslims are IDIOTS who will go around and marry 6 year old because of this makes you sound not so smart and I am trying to be nice here. I find it quite insulting that you think Muslims run around and jjust copy everything without using their BRAINS, we do know the difference between context, history and the present. The prophet saw did not use cars at this time so I guess since we Muslims take him as a role model we should all mount our camels and ride around, because you know we MODEL EVERYTHING he did And please stop talking for Muslim Women, you know nothing about our plight or what we go through, You are not my voice, do not Speak for me, you do not represent me! I have a Voice and yeh if i were abused like you tend to believe, I think I would use it.

Muslim, Woman!!!

The argument that other peoples used to allow child marriage isn't very convincing. If Delaware or Christianity allowed patricide, we still wouldn't find patricide acceptable.

We need to make every belief system stand on its own, without regard to whatever Delaware or somebody else used to do.

The question is, is child marriage, or isn't it, supported by religious scripture or tradition?

I think you can figure that one for yourself since nothing else can convince you, so you go ahead and believe whatever makes sense to you. I love debating with intelligent people who are logical in their thought process, debating just for the sake of debating is not my kind of fun and is a total waste of my neurons, so enjoy your Saturday

Muslim Woman.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The argument that other peoples used to allow child marriage isn't very convincing. If Delaware or Christianity allowed patricide, we still wouldn't find patricide acceptable.

We need to make every belief system stand on its own, without regard to whatever Delaware or somebody else used to do.

The question is, is child marriage, or isn't it, supported by religious scripture or tradition?

If your interest is in understanding the facts and gaining knowledge, then context is a great benefit. If your interest is creating a "gotcha" in order to be able to say that you won a debate or managed to put a check mark in the win column, then of course stacking the deck in this manner is very helpful.

Those who wish to find religious support for child marriage in Islam can and do find it. So there, you can do your victory dance.

But, many more believe Islam says the exact opposite.

Moreover, the exact same thing is true for Christianity.

I am really curious. Why is this important for you?

Stacking the deck? This is a simple question with a simple answer. "Stacking the deck" is insisting on so-called context and throwing sand in peoples' faces re Richard III and Delaware. Of course we all like history, but it doesn't lead us to the answer here.

And you ask why this is important to me, with the subtext that my motives are suspect and I'm only here to score debating points, or worse? Basically, it's close to an ad hominem attack without really being a direct ad hominem attack, because you're only suggesting that I'm here for a victory dance. There are several people on this thread, don't assume it's all me. There was a really abusive poster a page or two back, why didn't you go after that person? Or the divorce person, which again was not me--why didn't you go after that person? This is very intimidating.

[Anonymous]

PS, I'm not either of the people having a conversation about Islam and women's rights, either. Maybe one of these is the Convertitus Ordinarius poster and there are really only two others besides me.

But the point is, you're not having a head-to-head with one evil-minded, obsessive person here.

Except that by now I figure you've checked out my whole posting history. It's creepy.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:PS, I'm not either of the people having a conversation about Islam and women's rights, either. Maybe one of these is the Convertitus Ordinarius poster and there are really only two others besides me.

But the point is, you're not having a head-to-head with one evil-minded, obsessive person here.

Except that by now I figure you've checked out my whole posting history. It's creepy.

Two replies, but you didn't answer the question. If you are not here to score debating points, what is your interest in setting such parameters on the topic of discussion? I can frame questions about any religion in such a narrow manner as cause discomfort for mainstream believers of that religion. Why are you doing that for Islam?

Also, you can drop your conspiracy theory that I have the slightest interest in your posting history. You posted a response here. That response was entirely geared toward framing the topic in a manner that would elicit a specific answer. Everyone here already knew the answer to that specific question. Why don't you want to discuss the significance of that answer? The answer itself is not very enlightening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:i also read someone say that after divorce the only recourse of a muslim woman is to go back to her father's house. Again, stop spreading things that you do not know about, just because you read a book or studied next to XYZ, yadidyada doesn't make you the expert on this or even remotely know what you are talking about. Case in point, I am a muslim woman, a Divorced Muslim woman at that and no I never went back to my daddy's house, I live alone. So let me break it down to you so you will get it a bit, a muslim woman has the OPTION not the OBLIGATION ( know the difference?) to go back to her father's house if she is divorced and the father has the OBLIGATION to take her in if she chooses to do so, you know like those options they sell in the stock market why? This was done to protect women, so they will never have to resort to prostitution or homelessness just because they are divorced or single mothers. A muslim woman always has the choice to go back to her parents house and they will have to take care of her if she can't do it on her own.

Did your marriage, divorce and subsequent living-alone take place in a shariah-compliant community or in the West? If the latter, stop pretending your story is what Islam should be about. Actually, stop pretending your story is a proof of anything. Islam is what it is quite irrespective of what Muslims do. "This happened to me and I'm a Muslim woman" does not equal "this is what Islam says should happen to women."

I've said it before but people seem not to listen. Islam does not recognize marital property. With your husband free to divorce you at any time with only three months of maintenance, yes, your father's house better remain an option. If marital assets were split down the middle, fewer women would be threatened by prostitution or homelessness, don't you think?

Anonymous wrote: The prophet saw did not use cars at this time so I guess since we Muslims take him as a role model we should all mount our camels and ride around, because you know we MODEL EVERYTHING he did

If that wasn't at least partially true, you wouldn't in this day and age see men walking around in highwater pants five inches above their ankles, and Halalco wouldn't do a brisk trade in miswaks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i also read someone say that after divorce the only recourse of a muslim woman is to go back to her father's house. Again, stop spreading things that you do not know about, just because you read a book or studied next to XYZ, yadidyada doesn't make you the expert on this or even remotely know what you are talking about. Case in point, I am a muslim woman, a Divorced Muslim woman at that and no I never went back to my daddy's house, I live alone. So let me break it down to you so you will get it a bit, a muslim woman has the OPTION not the OBLIGATION ( know the difference?) to go back to her father's house if she is divorced and the father has the OBLIGATION to take her in if she chooses to do so, you know like those options they sell in the stock market why? This was done to protect women, so they will never have to resort to prostitution or homelessness just because they are divorced or single mothers. A muslim woman always has the choice to go back to her parents house and they will have to take care of her if she can't do it on her own.

Did your marriage, divorce and subsequent living-alone take place in a shariah-compliant community or in the West? If the latter, stop pretending your story is what Islam should be about. Actually, stop pretending your story is a proof of anything. Islam is what it is quite irrespective of what Muslims do. "This happened to me and I'm a Muslim woman" does not equal "this is what Islam says should happen to women."

I've said it before but people seem not to listen. Islam does not recognize marital property. With your husband free to divorce you at any time with only three months of maintenance, yes, your father's house better remain an option. If marital assets were split down the middle, fewer women would be threatened by prostitution or homelessness, don't you think?

Anonymous wrote: The prophet saw did not use cars at this time so I guess since we Muslims take him as a role model we should all mount our camels and ride around, because you know we MODEL EVERYTHING he did

If that wasn't at least partially true, you wouldn't in this day and age see men walking around in highwater pants five inches above their ankles, and Halalco wouldn't do a brisk trade in miswaks.

My marriage and divorce took place according to the shariah, nothing i have said is the result of the West, i was married according to shariah and divorced according to shariah. There are no separate rules of marriage/divorce depending on where you live, the rules are the same. Uhm Sorry, this is what Islam says should happen to women, nothing i have said/shared is just what happened to me , it is what happens to muslim women everywhere, it is the rule of Islam, you can refute it all you want, does not keep me up at night as i know what Islam said since I follow the damn thing. Why do you think you are the expert on this? LOL.. And no, us Muslim women don't want marital assets to be split down the middle, that does not interest us in any way so I don't know why you think you know what the solution is for muslim women in divorces. The way it works is this, we don't have to contribute squat in the home while married, every $$$$ we earn is ours and ours alone to do what we see fit, and when we get married we get a dowry from our husband, so that dowry and the salary you've been earning while working is what you put in a bank account so you have a nest if you get divorced. No , we don't believe that a man has to take care of you for 20+ years just because he married you, that does not make sense to me and no that wouldn't make my life better, and we have all seen the nasty divorces and nasty alimony fights in non muslim countries, so yeh that is not a perfect system either, to each their own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My marriage and divorce took place according to the shariah, nothing i have said is the result of the West, i was married according to shariah and divorced according to shariah. There are no separate rules of marriage/divorce depending on where you live, the rules are the same. Uhm Sorry, this is what Islam says should happen to women, nothing i have said/shared is just what happened to me , it is what happens to muslim women everywhere, it is the rule of Islam, you can refute it all you want, does not keep me up at night as i know what Islam said since I follow the damn thing. Why do you think you are the expert on this? LOL.. And no, us Muslim women don't want marital assets to be split down the middle, that does not interest us in any way so I don't know why you think you know what the solution is for muslim women in divorces. The way it works is this, we don't have to contribute squat in the home while married, every $$$$ we earn is ours and ours alone to do what we see fit, and when we get married we get a dowry from our husband, so that dowry and the salary you've been earning while working is what you put in a bank account so you have a nest if you get divorced. No , we don't believe that a man has to take care of you for 20+ years just because he married you, that does not make sense to me and no that wouldn't make my life better, and we have all seen the nasty divorces and nasty alimony fights in non muslim countries, so yeh that is not a perfect system either, to each their own.

There is no "we", you don't speak for every Muslim woman. You have no way of knowing what all of them want or believe. Stop making a virtue out of necessity.

I didn't say I know what the solution is. I simply pointed out that money wise, a divorced Muslim woman makes out worse vis-a-vis a non-Muslim one,or, more accurately, shariah views on divorce severely disadvantage women. Your dowry isn't yours to keep if you're the one wanting to divorce, incidentally.

Not every Muslim woman works and she needs her husband's permission to do so, anyway. Yeah, that nest egg worked out beautifully for Shah Bano, didn't it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My marriage and divorce took place according to the shariah, nothing i have said is the result of the West, i was married according to shariah and divorced according to shariah. There are no separate rules of marriage/divorce depending on where you live, the rules are the same. Uhm Sorry, this is what Islam says should happen to women, nothing i have said/shared is just what happened to me , it is what happens to muslim women everywhere, it is the rule of Islam, you can refute it all you want, does not keep me up at night as i know what Islam said since I follow the damn thing. Why do you think you are the expert on this? LOL.. And no, us Muslim women don't want marital assets to be split down the middle, that does not interest us in any way so I don't know why you think you know what the solution is for muslim women in divorces. The way it works is this, we don't have to contribute squat in the home while married, every $$$$ we earn is ours and ours alone to do what we see fit, and when we get married we get a dowry from our husband, so that dowry and the salary you've been earning while working is what you put in a bank account so you have a nest if you get divorced. No , we don't believe that a man has to take care of you for 20+ years just because he married you, that does not make sense to me and no that wouldn't make my life better, and we have all seen the nasty divorces and nasty alimony fights in non muslim countries, so yeh that is not a perfect system either, to each their own.

There is no "we", you don't speak for every Muslim woman. You have no way of knowing what all of them want or believe. Stop making a virtue out of necessity.

I didn't say I know what the solution is. I simply pointed out that money wise, a divorced Muslim woman makes out worse vis-a-vis a non-Muslim one,or, more accurately, shariah views on divorce severely disadvantage women. Your dowry isn't yours to keep if you're the one wanting to divorce, incidentally.

Not every Muslim woman works and she needs her husband's permission to do so, anyway. Yeah, that nest egg worked out beautifully for Shah Bano, didn't it.

uhm... Okay! I am done with this because again I don't like to debate just for the sake of debating. You choose to believe whatever you believe and you choose to make it your truth and live with it. Now, your truth is not The Truth and what you are trying to spew about Islam is FALSE and you can repeat it a hundred times, won't make a difference. My story is the story of millions of muslim women sorry to disappoint you, i am not the exception in the muslim community, i am the norm, really we do live like this. I have yet to meet a muslim woman asking for permission to go to work lol, your arguments are actually laughable to any muslim reading this. This is why I told you before stop thinking you are educated on this topic just because you read a book, an article or watched something on tv. Do you really believe this is how Muslims live? And no I don't agree that a Muslim woman makes out worse vis-a-vis a non Muslim woman after her divorce, your argument is assuming all non-muslim women who get divorced get this huge pack of money, and personal property, and I guess in your argument you are forgetting that in non-muslim societies some women are the ones paying the alimony so yeh I bet those women feel grateful In what world do you live? Maybe you should get out of your bubble sometimes and start talking to real people.....

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS, I'm not either of the people having a conversation about Islam and women's rights, either. Maybe one of these is the Convertitus Ordinarius poster and there are really only two others besides me.

But the point is, you're not having a head-to-head with one evil-minded, obsessive person here.

Except that by now I figure you've checked out my whole posting history. It's creepy.

Two replies, but you didn't answer the question. If you are not here to score debating points, what is your interest in setting such parameters on the topic of discussion? I can frame questions about any religion in such a narrow manner as cause discomfort for mainstream believers of that religion. Why are you doing that for Islam?

Also, you can drop your conspiracy theory that I have the slightest interest in your posting history. You posted a response here. That response was entirely geared toward framing the topic in a manner that would elicit a specific answer. Everyone here already knew the answer to that specific question. Why don't you want to discuss the significance of that answer? The answer itself is not very enlightening.

Discussing Islam shouldn't be threatening and intimidating. Yet here you are, repeatedly demanding that I prove my probity and questioning my motives. Now you write above that I shouldn't even ask certain questions about Islam because you claim "everybody here already knew the answer" but apparently nobody wants to say what the answer is, and apparently that should be OK. Do you ask people in the Beauty forum why they're recommending certain eyeliners and not others? Do you ask people in the parenting forums to prove they have kids before they ask about strollers or Sidwell?

So my questions for you are these. Do you know you're effectively shutting down conversation about Islam? And, if so, why are you doing this?

No, I have no intention of outing myself by telling everyone where I've lived or what my experience has been. I will say that I'm *not* the OP of this thread on the more clear-cut issue of disciplining your wife, and I barely participated in the negative posts in that part of the discussion. Nor am I the poster discussing divorce and flood pants in the posts right above this one. Yet you've singled me out for intimidation about my motives and even my right to ask certain questions. Additionally, Muslim Woman is a bully (besides being so random and off-topic that it's not worth addressing her points). I definitely feel intimidated by both of you, after simply trying to cut through some BS on Delaware and medieval kings to get a clear answer. I'd venture to guess that others reading this thread are thinking twice about asking questions about Islam that might bring down your scorn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My marriage and divorce took place according to the shariah, nothing i have said is the result of the West, i was married according to shariah and divorced according to shariah. There are no separate rules of marriage/divorce depending on where you live, the rules are the same. Uhm Sorry, this is what Islam says should happen to women, nothing i have said/shared is just what happened to me , it is what happens to muslim women everywhere, it is the rule of Islam, you can refute it all you want, does not keep me up at night as i know what Islam said since I follow the damn thing. Why do you think you are the expert on this? LOL.. And no, us Muslim women don't want marital assets to be split down the middle, that does not interest us in any way so I don't know why you think you know what the solution is for muslim women in divorces. The way it works is this, we don't have to contribute squat in the home while married, every $$$$ we earn is ours and ours alone to do what we see fit, and when we get married we get a dowry from our husband, so that dowry and the salary you've been earning while working is what you put in a bank account so you have a nest if you get divorced. No , we don't believe that a man has to take care of you for 20+ years just because he married you, that does not make sense to me and no that wouldn't make my life better, and we have all seen the nasty divorces and nasty alimony fights in non muslim countries, so yeh that is not a perfect system either, to each their own.

There is no "we", you don't speak for every Muslim woman. You have no way of knowing what all of them want or believe. Stop making a virtue out of necessity.

I didn't say I know what the solution is. I simply pointed out that money wise, a divorced Muslim woman makes out worse vis-a-vis a non-Muslim one,or, more accurately, shariah views on divorce severely disadvantage women. Your dowry isn't yours to keep if you're the one wanting to divorce, incidentally.

Not every Muslim woman works and she needs her husband's permission to do so, anyway. Yeah, that nest egg worked out beautifully for Shah Bano, didn't it.

uhm... Okay! I am done with this because again I don't like to debate just for the sake of debating. You choose to believe whatever you believe and you choose to make it your truth and live with it. Now, your truth is not The Truth and what you are trying to spew about Islam is FALSE and you can repeat it a hundred times, won't make a difference. My story is the story of millions of muslim women sorry to disappoint you, i am not the exception in the muslim community, i am the norm, really we do live like this. I have yet to meet a muslim woman asking for permission to go to work lol, your arguments are actually laughable to any muslim reading this. This is why I told you before stop thinking you are educated on this topic just because you read a book, an article or watched something on tv. Do you really believe this is how Muslims live? And no I don't agree that a Muslim woman makes out worse vis-a-vis a non Muslim woman after her divorce, your argument is assuming all non-muslim women who get divorced get this huge pack of money, and personal property, and I guess in your argument you are forgetting that in non-muslim societies some women are the ones paying the alimony so yeh I bet those women feel grateful In what world do you live? Maybe you should get out of your bubble sometimes and start talking to real people.....

You can go to KSA and meet millions of women who need their husbands' and fathers' permission to study, work, get married, travel etc.

Do you deny that under shariah, a husband may divorce his homemaker wife of twenty years and send her out of the door with three months' maintenance?

Do you deny that in women-initiated divorces a woman is required to return her dowry? While we are at it, do you deny that women have no independent right to initiate divorce?

What YOU need to do is stop thinking that experiences of Muslims in the West are reflective of what shariah expects them to do.

Girl...you have nothing to teach me, I've been married to a Muslim man for many years, I can teach classes on the matter. Yes, shariah has many unattractive parts and in my experience, it makes an average Muslim highly uncomfortable when you point them out. At that point they either say you're "spewing" or depart with huffing and puffing. It takes an evolved person to look at their tradition through the lens of critical thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS, I'm not either of the people having a conversation about Islam and women's rights, either. Maybe one of these is the Convertitus Ordinarius poster and there are really only two others besides me.

But the point is, you're not having a head-to-head with one evil-minded, obsessive person here.

Except that by now I figure you've checked out my whole posting history. It's creepy.

Two replies, but you didn't answer the question. If you are not here to score debating points, what is your interest in setting such parameters on the topic of discussion? I can frame questions about any religion in such a narrow manner as cause discomfort for mainstream believers of that religion. Why are you doing that for Islam?

Also, you can drop your conspiracy theory that I have the slightest interest in your posting history. You posted a response here. That response was entirely geared toward framing the topic in a manner that would elicit a specific answer. Everyone here already knew the answer to that specific question. Why don't you want to discuss the significance of that answer? The answer itself is not very enlightening.

Discussing Islam shouldn't be threatening and intimidating. Yet here you are, repeatedly demanding that I prove my probity and questioning my motives. Now you write above that I shouldn't even ask certain questions about Islam because you claim "everybody here already knew the answer" but apparently nobody wants to say what the answer is, and apparently that should be OK. Do you ask people in the Beauty forum why they're recommending certain eyeliners and not others? Do you ask people in the parenting forums to prove they have kids before they ask about strollers or Sidwell?

So my questions for you are these. Do you know you're effectively shutting down conversation about Islam? And, if so, why are you doing this?

No, I have no intention of outing myself by telling everyone where I've lived or what my experience has been. I will say that I'm *not* the OP of this thread on the more clear-cut issue of disciplining your wife, and I barely participated in the negative posts in that part of the discussion. Nor am I the poster discussing divorce and flood pants in the posts right above this one. Yet you've singled me out for intimidation about my motives and even my right to ask certain questions. Additionally, Muslim Woman is a bully (besides being so random and off-topic that it's not worth addressing her points). I definitely feel intimidated by both of you, after simply trying to cut through some BS on Delaware and medieval kings to get a clear answer. I'd venture to guess that others reading this thread are thinking twice about asking questions about Islam that might bring down your scorn.

I am sorry but i have not singled you out, since everyone's screen name is anonymous, I do not know who I am talking to and yes I actually thought it was one person responding but that's besides the point. I am seriously not trying to shut down a discussion about Islam. i said previously that I am all for intelligent discussions, however when you keep refuting the same thing over and over and just refuse to accept what is evident, it is a moot point to keep re-hassing the same thing over and over and that is why I chose to take myself out of the discussion.

Muslim Woman

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Discussing Islam shouldn't be threatening and intimidating. Yet here you are, repeatedly demanding that I prove my probity and questioning my motives. Now you write above that I shouldn't even ask certain questions about Islam because you claim "everybody here already knew the answer" but apparently nobody wants to say what the answer is, and apparently that should be OK. Do you ask people in the Beauty forum why they're recommending certain eyeliners and not others? Do you ask people in the parenting forums to prove they have kids before they ask about strollers or Sidwell?

So my questions for you are these. Do you know you're effectively shutting down conversation about Islam? And, if so, why are you doing this?

No, I have no intention of outing myself by telling everyone where I've lived or what my experience has been. I will say that I'm *not* the OP of this thread on the more clear-cut issue of disciplining your wife, and I barely participated in the negative posts in that part of the discussion. Nor am I the poster discussing divorce and flood pants in the posts right above this one. Yet you've singled me out for intimidation about my motives and even my right to ask certain questions. Additionally, Muslim Woman is a bully (besides being so random and off-topic that it's not worth addressing her points). I definitely feel intimidated by both of you, after simply trying to cut through some BS on Delaware and medieval kings to get a clear answer. I'd venture to guess that others reading this thread are thinking twice about asking questions about Islam that might bring down your scorn.

I respond to posts that interest me and I have had some fairly heated discussions on the topic of Sidwell and other private schools. People absolutely post in the Private Schools forum with an agenda of making a school look bad and I do question their motives. I question your motive for demanding that a particular topic be addressed in a complete vacuum without any context. I am amazed that you refuse to address that motive, but avoid it by acting like such a question is an attack on you. But, let me be clear. I think your demand that the topic be framed in this narrow manner is the result of your desire to make Islam look bad. If you feel that my statement is an attack on you, then that is certainly your right. If I have misunderstood your motive, I would absolutely love to be corrected.

If someone started a thread asking whether the Bible says that women should be silent (which it does) and demanded that the topic be addressed in as narrow a fashion as you expect this one to be, I would question that poster's motives as well. While the simple answer is "yes", that does nothing to explain the significance (or lack thereof) of that passage in Christianity.

As for shutting down discussion, you are the one who demands that your question be addressed only in a specific manner. No context is allowed. No historical analogies. You basically want a "yes" or "no" answer without any discussion at all.

If you have read this thread, I have responded to a number of people. Why do you believe you are being singled out?

[Anonymous]

You can go to KSA and meet millions of women who need their husbands' and fathers' permission to study, work, get married, travel etc.

Ok, and your point is? because KSA i guess is the Muslim epitome? KSA is the most un-islamic country that I know, they have taken a very tribal tradition of oppressing woman that they have been using for centuries and hide under the flag of Islam to justify oppressing their own women. This my friend has nothing to do with Islam, they were living this way hundreds of centuries before Islam and unfortunately that is still going on to this day. I applaud women in that area who refuse to subjugate themselves to this patriarchal society. The difference between you and me is that i know and recognize Injustice when i see it and I do not assign it to Islam just because the majority of the country is Muslim. You should watch this Ted talk about Manal Al Sharif, the saudi woman who dared to drive and got arrested. Funny enough she still loves Islam and know how to recognize that her oppression has nothing to do with the religion she follows :http://www.ted.com/talks/manal_al_sharif_a_saudi_woman_who_dared_to_drive.html

Do you deny that under shariah, a husband may divorce his homemaker wife of twenty years and send her out of the door with three months' maintenance?

I think I have responded to that on my earlier post, please refer to that- We do not believe on alimony i have already discussed that. I am a woman and i don't believe a man should take care of me for the rest of my life because we were married, now shoot me! Oh and no he can't send her out of the door, the rule says the wife stays in the house after the divorce for 3 months ( I guess to figure out what she is going to do next). Trust me in practical terms, this doesn't happen, I left the day i wanted a divorce ( my choice) and I never asked for 3 months alimony (my choice)

Do you deny that in women-initiated divorces a woman is required to return her dowry? While we are at it, do you deny that women have no independent right to initiate divorce?

Again, refer to my previous post about this- Yes, the woman is required to return the dowry if she wants a divorce and the husband refuses the divorce, he is entitled to get the dowry back if he ASKS for it. Which in practical terms again never happens, I did not return my dowry and was never asked to and I initiated my divorce

What YOU need to do is stop thinking that experiences of Muslims in the West are reflective of what shariah expects them to do.

Uhm sorry, I spent half of my life outside of the west in MUSLIM countries and nothing that you are saying is reflective to what is happening there, so stop drinking the coolaid. My family still lives in a 99% majority Muslim country so yeh I know what is going on in Muslim countries and I know what we believe in and yeh I am reflective of muslim women, i am not the EXCEPTION whether you like it or not i am the NORM. Does it mean some Muslim women are not oppressed? victimized? raped? beaten? living as second class citizens? Nope, I am not denying that and never have, just like some American Jewish, Atheists, Christian , Buddhist women are oppressed, victimized, raped, beaten every day. How about you go and talk about how Christianity, Judaism or Atheism is the reason for those oppressions? Why is is that Muslim Criminals are criminals because of their religion?? They are criminals and they would be criminals regardless of what religion they happen to follow, so again, have at it!!!!

Girl...you have nothing to teach me, I've been married to a Muslim man for many years, I can teach classes on the matter. Yes, shariah has many unattractive parts and in my experience, it makes an average Muslim highly uncomfortable when you point them out. At that point they either say you're "spewing" or depart with huffing and puffing. It takes an evolved person to look at their tradition through the lens of critical thinking.

No, you can't teach classes on the matter, sorry, don't go around spreading the ignorance. You've been married to a Muslim man so this makes you the expert in this I guess if i am married to a Doctor then I can go around and open my own practice and start teaching medicine Yes you might come to learn about your husband's religion through him and how he practices it, this in no way makes you an expert on the subject as you may know that if you want to learn about Islam you do not look at Muslims, you go to the Quran, you go to the source, but i am sure you knew that since you're married to a Muslim!

Muslim Woman

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Discussing Islam shouldn't be threatening and intimidating. Yet here you are, repeatedly demanding that I prove my probity and questioning my motives. Now you write above that I shouldn't even ask certain questions about Islam because you claim "everybody here already knew the answer" but apparently nobody wants to say what the answer is, and apparently that should be OK. Do you ask people in the Beauty forum why they're recommending certain eyeliners and not others? Do you ask people in the parenting forums to prove they have kids before they ask about strollers or Sidwell?

So my questions for you are these. Do you know you're effectively shutting down conversation about Islam? And, if so, why are you doing this?

No, I have no intention of outing myself by telling everyone where I've lived or what my experience has been. I will say that I'm *not* the OP of this thread on the more clear-cut issue of disciplining your wife, and I barely participated in the negative posts in that part of the discussion. Nor am I the poster discussing divorce and flood pants in the posts right above this one. Yet you've singled me out for intimidation about my motives and even my right to ask certain questions. Additionally, Muslim Woman is a bully (besides being so random and off-topic that it's not worth addressing her points). I definitely feel intimidated by both of you, after simply trying to cut through some BS on Delaware and medieval kings to get a clear answer. I'd venture to guess that others reading this thread are thinking twice about asking questions about Islam that might bring down your scorn.

I respond to posts that interest me and I have had some fairly heated discussions on the topic of Sidwell and other private schools. People absolutely post in the Private Schools forum with an agenda of making a school look bad and I do question their motives. I question your motive for demanding that a particular topic be addressed in a complete vacuum without any context. I am amazed that you refuse to address that motive, but avoid it by acting like such a question is an attack on you. But, let me be clear. I think your demand that the topic be framed in this narrow manner is the result of your desire to make Islam look bad. If you feel that my statement is an attack on you, then that is certainly your right. If I have misunderstood your motive, I would absolutely love to be corrected.

If someone started a thread asking whether the Bible says that women should be silent (which it does) and demanded that the topic be addressed in as narrow a fashion as you expect this one to be, I would question that poster's motives as well. While the simple answer is "yes", that does nothing to explain the significance (or lack thereof) of that passage in Christianity.

As for shutting down discussion, you are the one who demands that your question be addressed only in a specific manner. No context is allowed. No historical analogies. You basically want a "yes" or "no" answer without any discussion at all.

If you have read this thread, I have responded to a number of people. Why do you believe you are being singled out?

You seem to think that asking for a clear-cut answer is the same as trying to "make Islam look bad" and must be part of a broader agenda to "make Islam look bad." I disagree. If there's something controversial in any religion, it needs to be identified, not swept under the rug with nonsense about what Delaware did hundreds of years ago. What's relevant in 2013 is, what do practitioners of any religion believe in 2013? We need to be upfront about these questions, and not shut down debate by attacking peoples' motives or, as PP said, accusing them of spewing and then walking away.

Going over the thread, I agree you have attacked other posters who raised questions about Islam. I have never, however, seen you defend Christianity, Judaism or Catholicism. I'm not Catholic and never have been, but there's a group that could use a moderator to shut down some of the bigotry. If I'm wrong about your role regarding any religion besides Islam, I'm happy to be corrected.