Muslims - a question about the "wife beating" verse

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As another poster pointed out if you have any doubts on the anti female and oppressive nature of Islam towards female Google aisha and Mohammed and read on the age of child arranged marriages. This is only in regards to very traditional and strict islamic teachings more modern cultures don't necessarily follow it but it worries me that many countries are ruled under Islamic law.

You may want to check the date of that marriage. I'm pretty sure it was a long time ago. Moreover, if we are going to go back that many years, you may want to check the ages at which various Western, Christians were married. For instance, Richard II of England married Isabel of France when she was 7. Young Henry, the son of Henry II married Margaret of France when she was only 10 Of course, Young Henry himself was only 13. Similar to what you say about Islam, the marriage practices of the British royal family are not given much concern in most modern cultures. Sadly, modern American culture is not one of those and I'm concerned about the impact of royal marriage traditions on our own culture.

Are you trying to liken the issue of child marriage in Islam to child marriage in Europe centuries ago? If so, I don't understand how you can compare the two. Child marriage is illegal in Europe now. Child marriage still happens very frequently in most Islamic countries. It's still an issue in today's world that is going to be really hard to eradicate, given Islam's stance on marriagable age, and Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.

I was comparing the marriage of Aisha and Mohammed centuries ago to marriages in Europe centuries ago. What causes you to object to that comparison? And, if marriages from centuries ago are off limits, why are you yourself bringing up Mohammed?

Where child marriage exists today among Muslims, it has much more to do with local culture than it does with Islam. To suggest that because some Yemeni tribes might engage in child marriage reflects on Islam in general is similar to saying that Warren Jeffs and other Christian wack jobs tarnish the entire Christian religion.

It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

Most of what you outline in your first paragraph is cultural or traditional. Moreover, the motivations are not religious in nature.

When Islam spread, localized versions that incorporated local customs tended to develop. Another controversial example is female genital mutilation which is common is some Muslim communities, but uncommon among the vast majority. Child marriage is similar. If child marriage was as central to Islam as you claim, it would be common in all Muslim countries. But, it is not.

Moreover, why do you focus on Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and not his marriage to Khadija, an important businesswoman who was 15 years older than him? When she died, they had been married for 25 years. One could easily say that Khadija is a model of an independent self-reliant successful woman who contradicts many of the stereotypes of Muslim women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know this is a controversial and disputed verse. I was reading an article wherein the author said that when the verse says "beat" (also translated as "scourge"), what is meant is actual "gently tapping". But, how do you get "gentle tapping" from "beat/scourge". In addition, the verse tells the husband to "beat" his wife if she is being disobediant - how would "gently tapping" her do any good in bringing her back to obediance? If my husband was gently tapping me, it might annoy me, but it certainly wouldn't make me do what he says.

How do you, as a Muslim, interpret that verse?

This may help:
http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2012/02/take-care-of-your-wife.html

[Anonymous]

It reflects an outlook where the man governs the wife, whether you read this as being through gentle tapping or hitting. The wife does not get to tap or hit back.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

Most of what you outline in your first paragraph is cultural or traditional. Moreover, the motivations are not religious in nature.

When Islam spread, localized versions that incorporated local customs tended to develop. Another controversial example is female genital mutilation which is common is some Muslim communities, but uncommon among the vast majority. Child marriage is similar. If child marriage was as central to Islam as you claim, it would be common in all Muslim countries. But, it is not.

Moreover, why do you focus on Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and not his marriage to Khadija, an important businesswoman who was 15 years older than him? When she died, they had been married for 25 years. One could easily say that Khadija is a model of an independent self-reliant successful woman who contradicts many of the stereotypes of Muslim women.

You're splitting hairs. The reason child marriage is uncommon is that most people, Muslim or not, don't want to marry children. However, for the twisted few who do, it is important that laws are in place preventing that from happening. And in some Muslim-majority countries, such as Saudi Arabia, all attempts to set a minimum age for marriage were curbed by the finger-waiving clerics supported by the government whose argument isn't that it's our culture, but that it's our Sunnah, and no one gets to ban what is Sunnah. So if you happened to be a ten-year old in KSA and there's a man who wants to marry you, and your father agrees, than you're plain SOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

Most of what you outline in your first paragraph is cultural or traditional. Moreover, the motivations are not religious in nature.

When Islam spread, localized versions that incorporated local customs tended to develop. Another controversial example is female genital mutilation which is common is some Muslim communities, but uncommon among the vast majority. Child marriage is similar. If child marriage was as central to Islam as you claim, it would be common in all Muslim countries. But, it is not.

Moreover, why do you focus on Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and not his marriage to Khadija, an important businesswoman who was 15 years older than him? When she died, they had been married for 25 years. One could easily say that Khadija is a model of an independent self-reliant successful woman who contradicts many of the stereotypes of Muslim women.

You're splitting hairs. The reason child marriage is uncommon is that most people, Muslim or not, don't want to marry children. However, for the twisted few who do, it is important that laws are in place preventing that from happening. And in some Muslim-majority countries, such as Saudi Arabia, all attempts to set a minimum age for marriage were curbed by the finger-waiving clerics supported by the government whose argument isn't that it's our culture, but that it's our Sunnah, and no one gets to ban what is Sunnah. So if you happened to be a ten-year old in KSA and there's a man who wants to marry you, and your father agrees, than you're plain SOL.

Well that is a perfect example of an un-Islamic practice. A woman (or girl if you prefer) cannot be married off to anyone against her will. Islam is VERY clear about that. But it happens every day.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

Most of what you outline in your first paragraph is cultural or traditional. Moreover, the motivations are not religious in nature.

When Islam spread, localized versions that incorporated local customs tended to develop. Another controversial example is female genital mutilation which is common is some Muslim communities, but uncommon among the vast majority. Child marriage is similar. If child marriage was as central to Islam as you claim, it would be common in all Muslim countries. But, it is not.

Moreover, why do you focus on Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and not his marriage to Khadija, an important businesswoman who was 15 years older than him? When she died, they had been married for 25 years. One could easily say that Khadija is a model of an independent self-reliant successful woman who contradicts many of the stereotypes of Muslim women.

You're splitting hairs. The reason child marriage is uncommon is that most people, Muslim or not, don't want to marry children. However, for the twisted few who do, it is important that laws are in place preventing that from happening. And in some Muslim-majority countries, such as Saudi Arabia, all attempts to set a minimum age for marriage were curbed by the finger-waiving clerics supported by the government whose argument isn't that it's our culture, but that it's our Sunnah, and no one gets to ban what is Sunnah. So if you happened to be a ten-year old in KSA and there's a man who wants to marry you, and your father agrees, than you're plain SOL.

It's really astonishing that you find this so difficult to understand. If something is fundamental to Islam, it should be found in every Islamic country. For instance, almost all practicing Muslims abstain from eating pork. However, it is not true that most practicing Muslims support child marriage. Child marriage does have support in certain regions based on cultural traditions. But, the same is true in regions with similar traditions but where other religions predominate. For instance, India where Hindus have long practiced child marriage.

I agree that child marriage is a problem in some Muslim countries. But I disagree with you that this is something that is fundamental to Islam. To go by your logic, Islam does not allow women to drive cars because Saudi Arabia uses religious justifications to prevent women from driving. Yet clearly that is something specific to Saudi Arabia not Islam.

[Anonymous]

Jesus didn't marry a child

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jesus didn't marry a child

Nope. But his mom was a teen mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jesus didn't marry a child

We don't know what Jesus did. There is some evidence that he was a Gay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus didn't marry a child

Nope. But his mom was a teen mom.

Teenagers can consent

[Anonymous]

Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.

Who looks at a six year old and thinks when she's 9 I am gonna bang her

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It's more than just "cultural" in those places, although the extreme poverty in such areas do impact heavily on the rate of child marriage - poor parents with too many mouths to feed try to marry their young daughters off so they don't have to provide for them anymore, and also to receive the bride price. When they try to pass laws banning child marriage, the religious authorities say no way, because it goes against Islam. A few years ago, when Yemen tried to set a marriage age, protestors (including tons of women) took to the streets to say such a law would be against Islam.

Child marriage centures ago in Europe do NOT have the same impact today as Muhammad's marriage to Aisha. Muhammad instructed Muslims to follow his Sunnah and do the same things that he did during his life time. Thus, banning child marriage really is going against Islam, it's going against the Sunnah.

Most of what you outline in your first paragraph is cultural or traditional. Moreover, the motivations are not religious in nature.

When Islam spread, localized versions that incorporated local customs tended to develop. Another controversial example is female genital mutilation which is common is some Muslim communities, but uncommon among the vast majority. Child marriage is similar. If child marriage was as central to Islam as you claim, it would be common in all Muslim countries. But, it is not.

Moreover, why do you focus on Muhammad's marriage to Aisha and not his marriage to Khadija, an important businesswoman who was 15 years older than him? When she died, they had been married for 25 years. One could easily say that Khadija is a model of an independent self-reliant successful woman who contradicts many of the stereotypes of Muslim women.

You're splitting hairs. The reason child marriage is uncommon is that most people, Muslim or not, don't want to marry children. However, for the twisted few who do, it is important that laws are in place preventing that from happening. And in some Muslim-majority countries, such as Saudi Arabia, all attempts to set a minimum age for marriage were curbed by the finger-waiving clerics supported by the government whose argument isn't that it's our culture, but that it's our Sunnah, and no one gets to ban what is Sunnah. So if you happened to be a ten-year old in KSA and there's a man who wants to marry you, and your father agrees, than you're plain SOL.

It's really astonishing that you find this so difficult to understand. If something is fundamental to Islam, it should be found in every Islamic country. For instance, almost all practicing Muslims abstain from eating pork. However, it is not true that most practicing Muslims support child marriage. Child marriage does have support in certain regions based on cultural traditions. But, the same is true in regions with similar traditions but where other religions predominate. For instance, India where Hindus have long practiced child marriage.

I agree that child marriage is a problem in some Muslim countries. But I disagree with you that this is something that is fundamental to Islam. To go by your logic, Islam does not allow women to drive cars because Saudi Arabia uses religious justifications to prevent women from driving. Yet clearly that is something specific to Saudi Arabia not Islam.

I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aisha was married to Muhammad at the age of six and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.

Who looks at a six year old and thinks when she's 9 I am gonna bang her

I don't know if he looked at her lustfully or not. I wasn't there. Given all his other wives were much older, I tend to doubt it. Most of his marriages were social and political, to shore up alliances, etc. Aisha was his best friend's daughter. She was already engaged to another, and that engagement had to be broken.

While there is some dispute on age, most scholars agree she reached puberty before the marriage was consummated. Islam requires consenting adults. And for marriage, that meant puberty.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

I think your position has evolved a bit more than you are suggesting, but I agree that there is "support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it" (I'd avoid the use of the term "scriptural" in this context). The same could be said about Christianity. In both religions, it is also possible to find a basis for other interpretations.