Muslims - a question about the "wife beating" verse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I understand assets very well ( I actually work in Finance and I analyze assets for a living lol ) . And yes i probably have very poor friends and live with poor people lol. ( please get the sarcasm). In your Utopian world, assets get divided the way you think they do. Really? Yeh that's why i meet again and again Non Muslim women whose husbands put them on the street and moved their mistresses/girlfriends in and changed the locks before even filing for divorce! You've got to be kidding me! I don't know if you are really this ignorant or if you are just repeating the same thing over and over because you want to win a debate, I really hope it's the latter. ( Since you referred the real estate forum to my poor self, maybe you should stop by the relationship forum and learn about people fighting for financial support there ) I don't debate ignorance so please refer back to this...> Nothing you have said makes any sense and unfortunately your ignorance is simultaneously common, sickening, and sad and I do not have the time to educate you ! ( Really, good luck, I just don't have the time or effort to engage in uneducated debates and just an FYI , i have never been close to poverty, I can still live off of my grandparents money if I CHOOSE to without working a single day in my life, but you go ahead . Actually that's probably why i don't need a man's money in the form of alimony to survive, I am doing great )

I love how you said you don't have time to debate yet you keep coming back.

You work in finance and you never met people worth $900K? what kind of finance is that?

You can deal with your little stories all you want. The facts remain as they are: in Islam, there is no marital property. The wife does not accrue the rights to her husband's assets accumulated during the time of marriage. And since you didn't provide any evidence to contradict that, then I have already won that debate. You didn't refute that. You just kept repeating that actually, it's a good thing that she doesn't. Otherwise she may, I dunno, get a big head or something.

She said in 19:19 that she never met anybody who "made over $900K," which is an income concept. You were referring to net worth/assets in your original example. It's the same issue of distinguishing between income flows (income/alimony) and the balance sheet (net worth/assets).

You'd think someone in finance understand the difference, wouldn't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I understand assets very well ( I actually work in Finance and I analyze assets for a living lol ) . And yes i probably have very poor friends and live with poor people lol. ( please get the sarcasm). In your Utopian world, assets get divided the way you think they do. Really? Yeh that's why i meet again and again Non Muslim women whose husbands put them on the street and moved their mistresses/girlfriends in and changed the locks before even filing for divorce! You've got to be kidding me! I don't know if you are really this ignorant or if you are just repeating the same thing over and over because you want to win a debate, I really hope it's the latter. ( Since you referred the real estate forum to my poor self, maybe you should stop by the relationship forum and learn about people fighting for financial support there ) I don't debate ignorance so please refer back to this...> Nothing you have said makes any sense and unfortunately your ignorance is simultaneously common, sickening, and sad and I do not have the time to educate you ! ( Really, good luck, I just don't have the time or effort to engage in uneducated debates and just an FYI , i have never been close to poverty, I can still live off of my grandparents money if I CHOOSE to without working a single day in my life, but you go ahead . Actually that's probably why i don't need a man's money in the form of alimony to survive, I am doing great )

I love how you said you don't have time to debate yet you keep coming back.

You work in finance and you never met people worth $900K? what kind of finance is that?

You can deal with your little stories all you want. The facts remain as they are: in Islam, there is no marital property. The wife does not accrue the rights to her husband's assets accumulated during the time of marriage. And since you didn't provide any evidence to contradict that, then I have already won that debate. You didn't refute that. You just kept repeating that actually, it's a good thing that she doesn't. Otherwise she may, I dunno, get a big head or something.

She said in 19:19 that she never met anybody who "made over $900K," which is an income concept. You were referring to net worth/assets in your original example. It's the same issue of distinguishing between income flows (income/alimony) and the balance sheet (net worth/assets).

You'd think someone in finance understand the difference, wouldn't you?

Well, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I understand assets very well ( I actually work in Finance and I analyze assets for a living lol ) . And yes i probably have very poor friends and live with poor people lol. ( please get the sarcasm). In your Utopian world, assets get divided the way you think they do. Really? Yeh that's why i meet again and again Non Muslim women whose husbands put them on the street and moved their mistresses/girlfriends in and changed the locks before even filing for divorce! You've got to be kidding me! I don't know if you are really this ignorant or if you are just repeating the same thing over and over because you want to win a debate, I really hope it's the latter. ( Since you referred the real estate forum to my poor self, maybe you should stop by the relationship forum and learn about people fighting for financial support there ) I don't debate ignorance so please refer back to this...> Nothing you have said makes any sense and unfortunately your ignorance is simultaneously common, sickening, and sad and I do not have the time to educate you ! ( Really, good luck, I just don't have the time or effort to engage in uneducated debates and just an FYI , i have never been close to poverty, I can still live off of my grandparents money if I CHOOSE to without working a single day in my life, but you go ahead . Actually that's probably why i don't need a man's money in the form of alimony to survive, I am doing great )

I love how you said you don't have time to debate yet you keep coming back.

You work in finance and you never met people worth $900K? what kind of finance is that?

You can deal with your little stories all you want. The facts remain as they are: in Islam, there is no marital property. The wife does not accrue the rights to her husband's assets accumulated during the time of marriage. And since you didn't provide any evidence to contradict that, then I have already won that debate. You didn't refute that. You just kept repeating that actually, it's a good thing that she doesn't. Otherwise she may, I dunno, get a big head or something.

She said in 19:19 that she never met anybody who "made over $900K," which is an income concept. You were referring to net worth/assets in your original example. It's the same issue of distinguishing between income flows (income/alimony) and the balance sheet (net worth/assets).

Please quote where I said I never met anyone who made over $900k? This is exactly why I told you I don't have time to continue this debate because either you have reading comprehension difficulties or you are just plain dishonest.

Muslim Woman

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, in the US under civil -- not religious law -- child support is also mandatory.

It is income based under civil law, and some women do pay child support to their ex husbands. Under shariah law, the father is financially responsible for the children even if the mother is wealthy and a woman never pays child support to an ex husband, her money is hers to do as she pleases ....

Women would pay child support to their ex husbands if the children stay with ex-husbands. I am very certain that under shariah, if the children stay with the husband, he doesn't have to pay the *mother" either.

I also feel compelled to remind you that Muslim women lose the preferred right to custody of children if they remarry.

Again, another dishonest post, women can pay child support even if the children reside with them, maybe you should brush up on Child Support Laws, it is INCOME based and depends on the custody arrangements if the husband has the children 30% of the time, and the ex-wife has them 70% of the time and has a much higher income than the ex-husband she can still pay for Child Support, plus she will pay for alimony which under shariah law again never happens. Yes Shariah law states that Muslim women get full custody of the children in case of a divorce and if they get remarried the father can regain custody, you know how many times this is applied in practical terms? Almost never, all the divorcees that I know still have custody of their children even when they remarried . This is the main reason why I told you just because you read a book on the issue does not mean you fully grasp what happens in practical terms and every day life in Muslim communities

[Anonymous]

I think you've been nodding off in your halaqas, next time pay attention to the worksheets. The woman, like a little child, had to go to court to get a divorce. Her husband, if he wanted to, could have divorced her on the street, no court necessary. I wouldn't cite that case as proof of enlightenment, dear.

And why was the husband ordered to REPAY the dowry? he was supposed to pay up before marriage, was he not.

I guess, we are all little children in the West since we have to go to court to get a divorce.... You probably don't understand how dowry works ( google it) No he can't divorce her on the street ( google it). I don't have time to educate you

[Anonymous]

I love how you said you don't have time to debate yet you keep coming back.

I am not coming back to debate, just refuting the blatant "points" you are trying to make and referring you to Google

You work in finance and you never met people worth $900K? what kind of finance is that?

You can deal with your little stories all you want. The facts remain as they are: in Islam, there is no marital property. The wife does not accrue the rights to her husband's assets accumulated during the time of marriage. And since you didn't provide any evidence to contradict that, then I have already won that debate. You didn't refute that. You just kept repeating that actually, it's a good thing that she doesn't. Otherwise she may, I dunno, get a big head or something.

In my branch of Finance I actually don't deal with K's just Millions and Billions, so again quote where I said I never met someone who made $900k?

I never said there was Marital Property in Islam, in case of a divorce, the wife leaves with her wealth and the husband with his wealth, I guess in your world HUSBANDS are always wealthy and Wives are poor so yes it would be traumatic not to get any of your husband's property. In the real world wives come in marriages with their own personal property that is protected by Shariah so that the husband has no right to it in case of a divorce AND in the real world, wives actually can be wealthier than their husbands which if it happened in the west, stated wives would lose some of their personal property to the poor husband they married. Basically you are trying to use this as if the women are the losers in a rule like this because poor them, they won't get anything out of a marriage. You do know that WEALTHY people in the WEST use this thing called a PRENUP that protects their assets in case of a divorce, right? You do know that you can get zero if that is what the prenup said, right? and you do know that that is the LAW. And we don't use marriage as a way to get rich, if you want personal property, work for it, be independent, you don't need to depend on a man, have your own wealth and this my friend will never be a problem in your life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
John and Janice decide to marry. They also decide that Janice will stay home to take care of the home and raise their children, while John will be a breadwinner. John does well in his job and twenty years later they have a nice house in McLean, an apartment in downtown Washington, and $900,000 in pension funds. The next day, John decides he no longer wants to be married.

What happens to Janice? She gets a broken heart, half the house, half the apartment and half the pension.

A street over on the same day, Yusef and Asmaa decide to marry. They agree Asmaa will stay home to take care of the home and raise their children, while Yusef will be a breadwinner. Yusef does well in his job, and twenty years later they have a nice house in McLean, an apartment in downtown Washington, and $900,000 in pension funds. The next day, Yusef decides he no longer wants to be married.

What happens to Asmaa? She gets a broken heart, she gets to live in Yusef's house for three more months, and then she has to leave. Yusef keeps the house, the apartment, and the pension. And there's a lady on DCUM who says that's exactly how it should be. And no, she doesn't get to stay there for three more months to figure out what to do next. She gets to stay there for three more months so that Yusef can decide if he *really* wants to divorce her. Asmaa's feelings? They aren't really a part of this conversation.

Again, tjhis probably happens in the life you created in your head, in real life again how many people in the US make over $900k?

Do you understand the difference between having $900K in pension funds and making $900K?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Um, in the US under civil -- not religious law -- child support is also mandatory.

It is income based under civil law, and some women do pay child support to their ex husbands. Under shariah law, the father is financially responsible for the children even if the mother is wealthy and a woman never pays child support to an ex husband, her money is hers to do as she pleases ....

Women would pay child support to their ex husbands if the children stay with ex-husbands. I am very certain that under shariah, if the children stay with the husband, he doesn't have to pay the *mother" either.

I also feel compelled to remind you that Muslim women lose the preferred right to custody of children if they remarry.

Again, another dishonest post, women can pay child support even if the children reside with them, maybe you should brush up on Child Support Laws, it is INCOME based and depends on the custody arrangements if the husband has the children 30% of the time, and the ex-wife has them 70% of the time and has a much higher income than the ex-husband she can still pay for Child Support, plus she will pay for alimony which under shariah law again never happens. Yes Shariah law states that Muslim women get full custody of the children in case of a divorce and if they get remarried the father can regain custody, you know how many times this is applied in practical terms? Almost never, all the divorcees that I know still have custody of their children even when they remarried . This is the main reason why I told you just because you read a book on the issue does not mean you fully grasp what happens in practical terms and every day life in Muslim communities

We don't judge the legal system based on how well it is applied. We judge the legal system on its actual provisions. You can't wish away a part of the system just because it doesn't happen to be enforced.

Secondly, Shariah law doesn't state that Muslim women get full custody of children in case of divorce. More accurately, there is no unanimity in different branches of Shariah on the matters of custody of children; all four major and several minor schools of thoughts have their own theories on the matter, and most involve a transfer of custody from one parent to another, typically from mother to father, when children reach a certain age, further underscoring the conviction that while mothers are good enough to raise children, they aren't good enough to make decisions for them.

Importantly, though, fathers in Islam never relinquish custody defined as "the right to make decisions for their children", no matter where the child happens to live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think you've been nodding off in your halaqas, next time pay attention to the worksheets. The woman, like a little child, had to go to court to get a divorce. Her husband, if he wanted to, could have divorced her on the street, no court necessary. I wouldn't cite that case as proof of enlightenment, dear.

And why was the husband ordered to REPAY the dowry? he was supposed to pay up before marriage, was he not.

I guess, we are all little children in the West since we have to go to court to get a divorce.... You probably don't understand how dowry works ( google it) No he can't divorce her on the street ( google it). I don't have time to educate you

In the West, both you and your husband have to go to court to get a divorce.

In Shariah, the husbands have unrestricted right to divorce. Women don't, unless specifically contracted for in their marriage agreements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I never said there was Marital Property in Islam, in case of a divorce, the wife leaves with her wealth and the husband with his wealth, I guess in your world HUSBANDS are always wealthy and Wives are poor so yes it would be traumatic not to get any of your husband's property. In the real world wives come in marriages with their own personal property that is protected by Shariah so that the husband has no right to it in case of a divorce AND in the real world, wives actually can be wealthier than their husbands which if it happened in the west, stated wives would lose some of their personal property to the poor husband they married. Basically you are trying to use this as if the women are the losers in a rule like this because poor them, they won't get anything out of a marriage. You do know that WEALTHY people in the WEST use this thing called a PRENUP that protects their assets in case of a divorce, right? You do know that you can get zero if that is what the prenup said, right? and you do know that that is the LAW. And we don't use marriage as a way to get rich, if you want personal property, work for it, be independent, you don't need to depend on a man, have your own wealth and this my friend will never be a problem in your life.

In the real world wives also act as homemakers, raising the husband's children and taking care of his house - a role which Islam encourages - so they don't have an independent income apart from their family's assets.

I'm curious: what words of comfort would you give to a homemaker wife who spent thirty years cooking, cleaning and raising children, and is now about to be divorced with nothing but three months of maintenance? To go back to her father's house?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basically you are trying to use this as if the women are the losers in a rule like this because poor them, they won't get anything out of a marriage.

Homemaker wives are absolutely losers in a rule like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said there was Marital Property in Islam, in case of a divorce, the wife leaves with her wealth and the husband with his wealth, I guess in your world HUSBANDS are always wealthy and Wives are poor so yes it would be traumatic not to get any of your husband's property. In the real world wives come in marriages with their own personal property that is protected by Shariah so that the husband has no right to it in case of a divorce AND in the real world, wives actually can be wealthier than their husbands which if it happened in the west, stated wives would lose some of their personal property to the poor husband they married. Basically you are trying to use this as if the women are the losers in a rule like this because poor them, they won't get anything out of a marriage. You do know that WEALTHY people in the WEST use this thing called a PRENUP that protects their assets in case of a divorce, right? You do know that you can get zero if that is what the prenup said, right? and you do know that that is the LAW. And we don't use marriage as a way to get rich, if you want personal property, work for it, be independent, you don't need to depend on a man, have your own wealth and this my friend will never be a problem in your life.

In the real world wives also act as homemakers, raising the husband's children and taking care of his house - a role which Islam encourages - so they don't have an independent income apart from their family's assets.

I'm curious: what words of comfort would you give to a homemaker wife who spent thirty years cooking, cleaning and raising children, and is now about to be divorced with nothing but three months of maintenance? To go back to her father's house?

That is generally what happens. What else can she do? Most Muslim countries don't have (or have very few) women's shelters

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS, I'm not either of the people having a conversation about Islam and women's rights, either. Maybe one of these is the Convertitus Ordinarius poster and there are really only two others besides me.

But the point is, you're not having a head-to-head with one evil-minded, obsessive person here.

Except that by now I figure you've checked out my whole posting history. It's creepy.

Two replies, but you didn't answer the question. If you are not here to score debating points, what is your interest in setting such parameters on the topic of discussion? I can frame questions about any religion in such a narrow manner as cause discomfort for mainstream believers of that religion. Why are you doing that for Islam?

Also, you can drop your conspiracy theory that I have the slightest interest in your posting history. You posted a response here. That response was entirely geared toward framing the topic in a manner that would elicit a specific answer. Everyone here already knew the answer to that specific question. Why don't you want to discuss the significance of that answer? The answer itself is not very enlightening.

Discussing Islam shouldn't be threatening and intimidating. Yet here you are, repeatedly demanding that I prove my probity and questioning my motives. Now you write above that I shouldn't even ask certain questions about Islam because you claim "everybody here already knew the answer" but apparently nobody wants to say what the answer is, and apparently that should be OK. Do you ask people in the Beauty forum why they're recommending certain eyeliners and not others? Do you ask people in the parenting forums to prove they have kids before they ask about strollers or Sidwell?

So my questions for you are these. Do you know you're effectively shutting down conversation about Islam? And, if so, why are you doing this? No, I have no intention of outing myself by telling everyone where I've lived or what my experience has been. I will say that I'm *not* the OP of this thread on the more clear-cut issue of disciplining your wife, and I barely participated in the negative posts in that part of the discussion. Nor am I the poster discussing divorce and flood pants in the posts right above this one. Yet you've singled me out for intimidation about my motives and even my right to ask certain questions. Additionally, Muslim Woman is a bully (besides being so random and off-topic that it's not worth addressing her points). I definitely feel intimidated by both of you, after simply trying to cut through some BS on Delaware and medieval kings to get a clear answer. I'd venture to guess that others reading this thread are thinking twice about asking questions about Islam that might bring down your scorn.

^^ This ^^
So true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
She said in 19:19 that she never met anybody who "made over $900K," which is an income concept. You were referring to net worth/assets in your original example. It's the same issue of distinguishing between income flows (income/alimony) and the balance sheet (net worth/assets).

Please quote where I said I never met anyone who made over $900k? This is exactly why I told you I don't have time to continue this debate because either you have reading comprehension difficulties or you are just plain dishonest.

Muslim Woman

I gave the cite as 19:19 so you could have verified yourself. But here's an exact quote from your own mouth:

Anonymous wrote:Again, tjhis probably happens in the life you created in your head, in real life again how many people in the US make over $900k? You can't make sense with nonsense.

The difference between an income statement and a balance sheet is maybe the first lesson you learn in finance. So maybe when you realize you should stop calling me dishonest, you should stop claiming you "work in finance" at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
She said in 19:19 that she never met anybody who "made over $900K," which is an income concept. You were referring to net worth/assets in your original example. It's the same issue of distinguishing between income flows (income/alimony) and the balance sheet (net worth/assets).

Please quote where I said I never met anyone who made over $900k? This is exactly why I told you I don't have time to continue this debate because either you have reading comprehension difficulties or you are just plain dishonest.

Muslim Woman

I gave the cite as 19:19 so you could have verified yourself. But here's an exact quote from your own mouth:

Anonymous wrote:Again, tjhis probably happens in the life you created in your head, in real life again how many people in the US make over $900k? You can't make sense with nonsense.

The difference between an income statement and a balance sheet is maybe the first lesson you learn in finance. So maybe when you realize you should stop calling me dishonest, you should stop claiming you "work in finance" at the same time.

So how many people in the US make over $900k is equal to I have never met anyone who makes $900k? Yes, clearly you have reading comprehension problems, so I rest my case I will not comment on any of your previous posts. Again good luck, you know the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement, i will give you a cookie ( Note: sarcasm there, you don't know the difference) My daughter who is a toddler understands equity and revenues better than you do because if you did you would know that the income statement is linked to the balance sheet in the sense that net income flows into equity via retained earnings so your finance knowledge is basic at best ( meaning you know the definition of revenues and net worth yeyyy) since you have to say that you were referring to net worth, not an income concept lol . Newsflash, they are linked and related. I can't break this down for you, you can't afford my rates and I don't do this for free, go get a book on the concept at the library. Again, good luck!