Muslims - a question about the "wife beating" verse

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

I think your position has evolved a bit more than you are suggesting, but I agree that there is "support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it" (I'd avoid the use of the term "scriptural" in this context). The same could be said about Christianity. In both religions, it is also possible to find a basis for other interpretations.

On an anonymous board, it isn't possible to say whose position evolved, and to what length. For the satisfaction of your heart, my first post on the subject was made at 19.54.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

I think your position has evolved a bit more than you are suggesting, but I agree that there is "support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it" (I'd avoid the use of the term "scriptural" in this context). The same could be said about Christianity. In both religions, it is also possible to find a basis for other interpretations.

What? Where? The fact that some Christians might have married child brides in 100 AD is different from saying the founder of the faith married a child bride. Even if you think Jesus married Mary Magdalen, she wasn't a child. In two faiths where believers are supposed to model themselves on the founders, this is an important difference.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

I think your position has evolved a bit more than you are suggesting, but I agree that there is "support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it" (I'd avoid the use of the term "scriptural" in this context). The same could be said about Christianity. In both religions, it is also possible to find a basis for other interpretations.

What? Where? The fact that some Christians might have married child brides in 100 AD is different from saying the founder of the faith married a child bride. Even if you think Jesus married Mary Magdalen, she wasn't a child. In two faiths where believers are supposed to model themselves on the founders, this is an important difference.

I will assume that you are not any of the previous posters and that you are brand new to this discussion. But, my statement that you bolded refers to this:

"there is support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it"

If you read that carefully, you will notice that it says nothing about Muhammad or Jesus. But, if you do not think that support for child marriage can be found in Christianity if one wants to find it, you are not very well-versed in either current events or Christianity. Plenty of Christians find support for child marriage in their interpretation of Christianity.

But, to put your post in context, Aisha and Muhammad were married some time around 620 AD. Richard II married 7 year old Isabella around 1400 AD. I think that both of these marriages need to be seen in the context of their times. You seem to believe that Muhammad's marriage is more important because he was the founder of Islam and Muslims are supposed to model themselves after him. I don't think most Muslims believe they do need to model themselves in this specific instance. But, if they do, the vast majority have failed given that child marriage is far from the norm among Muslims.

BTW, what do you believe to be the ages of Mary and Joseph when they were married? What age was Mary when she gave birth?

[Anonymous]

You're right, I am a new poster. If it helps convince you I'm not one of the knee-jerk Islamaphobes on DCUM, let me say that I've studied many religions, including Islam with a prof who went on to head the American University in Beirut a while back. I entered this thread because I think some distinctions are getting muddled.

On the contrary, I think -- no, I know -- it is important to many Christians and Muslims to model themselves on their founders. This is why many pious Muslim men wear beards, for example. It's also the source of the sunnah--the sayings and doings of the Prophet that play such an important role in Islam. Sunnah, which means "path", is a way of life, based on Mohammad's own sayings and doings, that many pious Muslims try to follow.

I don't think we can compare the sunnah to Richard II's marital history, in terms of importance to these respective faiths. Nobody is imitating Richard II's life.

Re Mary and Joseph, I think conventional wisdom is that she was about 13 or so when she gave birth. We don't have a clue whether she was engaged or married at age 6 or later, so I don't think it serves much purpose to speculate on that.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said child marriage was fundamental to Islam, or that most practicing Muslims support it, or whatever other things you want to pretend I said to make your argument sound better. I will rephrase what I said, so that you can't replace it for other things. There is scriptural support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it.

I think your position has evolved a bit more than you are suggesting, but I agree that there is "support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it" (I'd avoid the use of the term "scriptural" in this context). The same could be said about Christianity. In both religions, it is also possible to find a basis for other interpretations.

What? Where? The fact that some Christians might have married child brides in 100 AD is different from saying the founder of the faith married a child bride. Even if you think Jesus married Mary Magdalen, she wasn't a child. In two faiths where believers are supposed to model themselves on the founders, this is an important difference.

I will assume that you are not any of the previous posters and that you are brand new to this discussion. But, my statement that you bolded refers to this:

"there is support for child marriage in Islam if one wants to find it"

If you read that carefully, you will notice that it says nothing about Muhammad or Jesus. But, if you do not think that support for child marriage can be found in Christianity if one wants to find it, you are not very well-versed in either current events or Christianity. Plenty of Christians find support for child marriage in their interpretation of Christianity.

But, to put your post in context, Aisha and Muhammad were married some time around 620 AD. Richard II married 7 year old Isabella around 1400 AD. I think that both of these marriages need to be seen in the context of their times. You seem to believe that Muhammad's marriage is more important because he was the founder of Islam and Muslims are supposed to model themselves after him. I don't think most Muslims believe they do need to model themselves in this specific instance. But, if they do, the vast majority have failed given that child marriage is far from the norm among Muslims.

BTW, what do you believe to be the ages of Mary and Joseph when they were married? What age was Mary when she gave birth?

PS. I bolded your one sentence on Christianity because that was what I am (still, and mainly) interested in addressing. I'm not interested in arguing Islam with you. Except to the extent that to refute your points on Christianity, I've had to point out that the sunnah and Richard II play very different roles in these two religions, and we can't compare them. If you have different evidence that Christianity supports child marriage, apart from speculation about Mary, I'm very open to listening to it.

[Anonymous]

I was just reading this article about Islam written by a convert:

http://www.arabnews.com/news/460671

I heard about a great opportunity through Ohio State University. So I transferred, and enrolled in summer semester classes there. At that time I was required to take a foreign culture course. I could have chosen any geographical location; I chose the Middle East because I didn't know a lot about it. One day an American Muslim woman came in and did a lecture on Islam, the faith of most people in the Middle East. She highlighted some very interesting aspects of the religion and corrected many of our misconceptions. Her presentation was called 'The place of women in Islam.' She explained how Islam had safeguarded women's rights and privileges well before the Women's Rights movements of the previous century (in US). She explained the special position and role of women in Islam. Over 1400 years ago, Islam granted women novel powers and privileges, like the rights to buy and sell property, to work and make a living, to keep their names, save money, refuse a marriage proposal, inherit from deceased relatives, do business, get an education, express themselves, stand witness in trial, and even to make their own prenuptials! Islam put an end to the oppressions like wife-beating, female infanticide, and the custom of automatically inheriting a dead man's widow, which could have numbered in the hundreds. Islam limited the number of wives to four and even then with strict obligations. The vast majority of Muslim men marry only one anyway. She said Muslims also venerated Mary the mother of Jesus, calling her the most pious of women.

Considering the verse that give men permission to beat their disobedient wives, how did Islam put an end to wife-beating?

If Islam is what gave women the right to buy and sell property, work, do business, etc., how is it that Khadija was a rich business woman (who inherited the business) BEFORE Islam even came to be?

I don't understand how, if someone has studied Islam, can say that it's because of Islam that women have these rights...

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:You're right, I am a new poster. If it helps convince you I'm not one of the knee-jerk Islamaphobes on DCUM, let me say that I've studied many religions, including Islam with a prof who went on to head the American University in Beirut a while back. I entered this thread because I think some distinctions are getting muddled.

On the contrary, I think -- no, I know -- it is important to many Christians and Muslims to model themselves on their founders. This is why many pious Muslim men wear beards, for example. It's also the source of the sunnah--the sayings and doings of the Prophet that play such an important role in Islam. Sunnah, which means "path", is a way of life, based on Mohammad's own sayings and doings, that many pious Muslims try to follow.

I don't think we can compare the sunnah to Richard II's marital history, in terms of importance to these respective faiths. Nobody is imitating Richard II's life.

Re Mary and Joseph, I think conventional wisdom is that she was about 13 or so when she gave birth. We don't have a clue whether she was engaged or married at age 6 or later, so I don't think it serves much purpose to speculate on that.

It is surprising that despite the academic qualifications you cite, you seem to lack common sense or understand basic logic. Explain this:

If Muhammad's marrying a young girl is something that Muslim males should emulate, why are the vast majority of Muslim males not marrying children? Compare this to the number of Muslim men with beards. There is no comparison. Simple common sense suggests that this is one action by Muhammad that Muslims generally do not try to emulate.

The bottom line is that Muslims who wish to find justification for child marriage in Islam can find it. Those who wish to find another interpretation can also find it. The exact same thing is true in Christianity. Christians don't find that justification in the life of Jesus, but in the bible and other teachings. The bible is full of old men marrying young girls. Warren Jeffs is one well-known Christian who found religious justification for child marriage. While he can be written off as crazy, child marriage does occur in many Christian communities around the world.

You, of course, don't want to delve too deeply into the age at which Mary was married. But, she may have been younger than 10. Joseph may have been 50 or older. So, a cradle-robber just like Muhammad.

[Anonymous]

Jeff, your patronizing tone is totally unjustified and it makes your tendentious points less, not more, convincing.

At least, after at least two of us have argued the point with you, you seem to have stopped trying to imply that Richard II is a good analogy for the role of Mohammad in Islam.

I already said that I'm totally uninterested in unverifiable speculation about how Mary "may have been younger than 10" when she was married. Sure, and she may have been 20, too. Your "may haves" prove nothing.

I'm sure you'll be a jerk about this, too, but I place a lot of importance on fair, logical examinations of all faiths. I've done a lot of reading on the historical Jesus (Borg, Crossan and the like), I'm pretty sure I know a heck of a lot more about many of these issues than you do. I'm disappointed in your arrogant, poorly-reasoned analogies, and it's clear that reasonable discussion is going to be impossible.

Yeah, go ahead and insult me some more. I'm done here. Good bye.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, your patronizing tone is totally unjustified and it makes your tendentious points less, not more, convincing.

At least, after at least two of us have argued the point with you, you seem to have stopped trying to imply that Richard II is a good analogy for the role of Mohammad in Islam.

I already said that I'm totally uninterested in unverifiable speculation about how Mary "may have been younger than 10" when she was married. Sure, and she may have been 20, too. Your "may haves" prove nothing.

I'm sure you'll be a jerk about this, too, but I place a lot of importance on fair, logical examinations of all faiths. I've done a lot of reading on the historical Jesus (Borg, Crossan and the like), I'm pretty sure I know a heck of a lot more about many of these issues than you do. I'm disappointed in your arrogant, poorly-reasoned analogies, and it's clear that reasonable discussion is going to be impossible.

Yeah, go ahead and insult me some more. I'm done here. Good bye.

Oh, so you are the Borg, Crossan guy from the Politics Forum? That explains a lot. Yes, as you made clear in the discussion of "Zealot", you are far more learned, far more intelligent, and simply too advanced in your thinking to discuss these topics with us lowlifes. Yet, I am the patronizing one.

As I said, of course you don't want to discuss the age at which Mary was married. But, as you wrote yourself, "conventional wisdom is that she was about 13 or so when she gave birth". With that in mind, do you believe it is more likely that Mary may have been younger than 10 when she was married or that she may have been 20?

If you fail to understand that comparing Christian marriage practices from centuries ago to Muslim marriage practices centuries ago is valid, I don't know what to say. Both practices reflected the times and members of both religions mostly view them as such. But, your "fair, logical, examination" means looking at Mohammad's marriage in a vacuum, ignoring similar Christian practices that were even more recent, and then making a judgement about what that means for today. Basically, you stack the deck and then claim you have come to the correct conclusion. No, you came to the conclusion that you desired.

Now, given your vast background -- including Borg and Crossan -- why don't you tell us what the Eastern Orthodox Church believes about the ages of Mary and Joseph? There is much less speculation about that in the Eastern Church. But, you've made pretty clear that while you are willing to make broad proclamations about Islam, you get pretty touchy about Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Jesus was celibate. That's what the early Christians and priests in the Catholic church are copying today. This means that marriage practices around that time are irrelevant for that faith in 2013.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was just reading this article about Islam written by a convert:

http://www.arabnews.com/news/460671

I heard about a great opportunity through Ohio State University. So I transferred, and enrolled in summer semester classes there. At that time I was required to take a foreign culture course. I could have chosen any geographical location; I chose the Middle East because I didn't know a lot about it. One day an American Muslim woman came in and did a lecture on Islam, the faith of most people in the Middle East. She highlighted some very interesting aspects of the religion and corrected many of our misconceptions. Her presentation was called 'The place of women in Islam.' She explained how Islam had safeguarded women's rights and privileges well before the Women's Rights movements of the previous century (in US). She explained the special position and role of women in Islam. Over 1400 years ago, Islam granted women novel powers and privileges, like the rights to buy and sell property, to work and make a living, to keep their names, save money, refuse a marriage proposal, inherit from deceased relatives, do business, get an education, express themselves, stand witness in trial, and even to make their own prenuptials! Islam put an end to the oppressions like wife-beating, female infanticide, and the custom of automatically inheriting a dead man's widow, which could have numbered in the hundreds. Islam limited the number of wives to four and even then with strict obligations. The vast majority of Muslim men marry only one anyway. She said Muslims also venerated Mary the mother of Jesus, calling her the most pious of women.

Considering the verse that give men permission to beat their disobedient wives, how did Islam put an end to wife-beating?

If Islam is what gave women the right to buy and sell property, work, do business, etc., how is it that Khadija was a rich business woman (who inherited the business) BEFORE Islam even came to be?

I don't understand how, if someone has studied Islam, can say that it's because of Islam that women have these rights...

This is a well-known condition called Convertitis Ordinaris. Women seem to manifest it in stronger forms than men.

Islam did grant women SOME rights but most certainly not on par with men, a distinction very well preserved in contemporary Islamic discourse. I can take apart any of the rights she said Islam gave women but don't have time right now.

I'll leave you with this morsel: Islam "allows" women to retain their maiden names because paternal links are viewed as permanent and marital links as temporary. A woman remains forever a daughter of her father; that she is her husband's wife is a temporary condition. A misbehaving woman is sent back to her "father's house", and a cheating wife is brought to her father to discipline her, not her husband.

Not because it's somehow repressive to take your husband's last name.

[Anonymous]

Islam granted huge rights to women when first introduced. Serious leaps forward at the time. But they've stagnated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Islam granted huge rights to women when first introduced. Serious leaps forward at the time. But they've stagnated.

I agree with this. At the time, Islam was (relatively speaking) quite forward thinking when it came to women - it absolutely did not put women on par with men, but it outlined specific rights for women that they did not have, or were entitled to at the time. Islam didn't equalize things for women - but it did make things better.

In my own opinion, the stagnation is the same across the board for any religion. People will try and do exegetical analysis, or look for loopholes in religious texts (whatever text that may be) to indicate that they're "living" religions - but the verses are the verses. They're set. Even with translation and trying to understand the evolutionary changes of words, every religion is extremely misogynistic by today's standards. They're all stagnant. For some reason, god is pretty silent when it comes to clarifying or updating us - can't say I'm surprised.

[Anonymous]

Common sense is not that common and once can not argue with ignorance. Muslim woman here speaking. To the poster who keeps saying that child marriage is common in Islam, i will stop you right there: stop spreading fallacies. Child marriage is not a part of marriage nor is it part of the Sunnah, go and learn what sunnah is about before you start debating/talking about Sunnah .

I was raised in a muslim family, have lived in muslim countries and i have yet to meet a Muslim man who was married to a child . I have learned of cases, but is that the norm? No, just like you hear of cases of child marriage in the US, you will hear cases of child marriage in Muslim communities as well. That has nothing to do with Islam, it is strictly cultural and traditional to those people who tend to practice it and even of the cases I've ever heard of in modern history, the "child" was a teen, not a toddler.

The other thing to note, is most of those marriages do happen in tribal communities and usually just because the marriage is done doesn't mean it is consummated, tribe members will marry their kids but still have them in the household till they reach puberty at which point, they go to the husband's house. This practice can be problematic and is in the eyes of Islam because it is strictly forbidden to marry a woman against her will and that is actually one of the questions asked by the Imam when you get married, he will ask you as a woman if you fully consent and agree to the marriage contract without being coerced by anyone. A forced marriage is not recognized by Islam, is it still practiced by some people? Yes, just like murder is not accepted by any religion but people of all faith still go and kill people.

i also read someone say that after divorce the only recourse of a muslim woman is to go back to her father's house. Again, stop spreading things that you do not know about, just because you read a book or studied next to XYZ, yadidyada doesn't make you the expert on this or even remotely know what you are talking about. Case in point, I am a muslim woman, a Divorced Muslim woman at that and no I never went back to my daddy's house, I live alone. So let me break it down to you so you will get it a bit, a muslim woman has the OPTION not the OBLIGATION ( know the difference?) to go back to her father's house if she is divorced and the father has the OBLIGATION to take her in if she chooses to do so, you know like those options they sell in the stock market why? This was done to protect women, so they will never have to resort to prostitution or homelessness just because they are divorced or single mothers. A muslim woman always has the choice to go back to her parents house and they will have to take care of her if she can't do it on her own.

Now as far as the beloved prophet Muhammad SAW's marriage to Aisha (one of the favorite topics of the critics and haters of Islam ) You have ignored every explanation that Jeff provided as far as context and the time that marriage took place. Did you know that American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in Delaware, the age of consent was only seven? Now during the Prophet saw's time it was a NORM to be married at a young age. This is why the people of Quraish and other Arabian tribes at Prophet's time found absolutely no fault in their marriage. They detested Islam, they did everything to belittle the Prophet, tried to prevent Islam from spreading and even attempted to kill the Prophet! However, they raised no objection to the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha since at those times such a thing was not considered 'immoral'. It ought also be noted that Aisha was engaged to Jubayr before Prophet Muhammed saw. This indicates the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet' saw's time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr's parents due to Abu Bakr (Aisha's dad) embracing Islam.Thus the history demonstrates that the age of the marriage was lower and relative to olden times, the marriage of the Prophet was not abnormal and there was nothing immoral about it. It was a norm at biblical times to be wedded at puberty or earlier, the age of consent one century ago in a 'modern country' was as low as 10 or 12, even 7 in Delaware! Even in our times, in certain societies, the age of consent is as low as 12 or 13. In the light of historical evidences, the marriage cannot be criticized. So Have at it!!! And to believe that Muslims are IDIOTS who will go around and marry 6 year old because of this makes you sound not so smart and I am trying to be nice here. I find it quite insulting that you think Muslims run around and jjust copy everything without using their BRAINS, we do know the difference between context, history and the present. The prophet saw did not use cars at this time so I guess since we Muslims take him as a role model we should all mount our camels and ride around, because you know we MODEL EVERYTHING he did And please stop talking for Muslim Women, you know nothing about our plight or what we go through, You are not my voice, do not Speak for me, you do not represent me! I have a Voice and yeh if i were abused like you tend to believe, I think I would use it.

Muslim, Woman!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Common sense is not that common and once can not argue with ignorance. Muslim woman here speaking. To the poster who keeps saying that child marriage is common in Islam, i will stop you right there: stop spreading fallacies. Child marriage is not a part of marriage nor is it part of the Sunnah, go and learn what sunnah is about before you start debating/talking about Sunnah .

I was raised in a muslim family, have lived in muslim countries and i have yet to meet a Muslim man who was married to a child . I have learned of cases, but is that the norm? No, just like you hear of cases of child marriage in the US, you will hear cases of child marriage in Muslim communities as well. That has nothing to do with Islam, it is strictly cultural and traditional to those people who tend to practice it and even of the cases I've ever heard of in modern history, the "child" was a teen, not a toddler.

The other thing to note, is most of those marriages do happen in tribal communities and usually just because the marriage is done doesn't mean it is consummated, tribe members will marry their kids but still have them in the household till they reach puberty at which point, they go to the husband's house. This practice can be problematic and is in the eyes of Islam because it is strictly forbidden to marry a woman against her will and that is actually one of the questions asked by the Imam when you get married, he will ask you as a woman if you fully consent and agree to the marriage contract without being coerced by anyone. A forced marriage is not recognized by Islam, is it still practiced by some people? Yes, just like murder is not accepted by any religion but people of all faith still go and kill people.

i also read someone say that after divorce the only recourse of a muslim woman is to go back to her father's house. Again, stop spreading things that you do not know about, just because you read a book or studied next to XYZ, yadidyada doesn't make you the expert on this or even remotely know what you are talking about. Case in point, I am a muslim woman, a Divorced Muslim woman at that and no I never went back to my daddy's house, I live alone. So let me break it down to you so you will get it a bit, a muslim woman has the OPTION not the OBLIGATION ( know the difference?) to go back to her father's house if she is divorced and the father has the OBLIGATION to take her in if she chooses to do so, you know like those options they sell in the stock market why? This was done to protect women, so they will never have to resort to prostitution or homelessness just because they are divorced or single mothers. A muslim woman always has the choice to go back to her parents house and they will have to take care of her if she can't do it on her own.

Now as far as the beloved prophet Muhammad SAW's marriage to Aisha (one of the favorite topics of the critics and haters of Islam ) You have ignored every explanation that Jeff provided as far as context and the time that marriage took place. Did you know that American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in Delaware, the age of consent was only seven? Now during the Prophet saw's time it was a NORM to be married at a young age. This is why the people of Quraish and other Arabian tribes at Prophet's time found absolutely no fault in their marriage. They detested Islam, they did everything to belittle the Prophet, tried to prevent Islam from spreading and even attempted to kill the Prophet! However, they raised no objection to the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha since at those times such a thing was not considered 'immoral'. It ought also be noted that Aisha was engaged to Jubayr before Prophet Muhammed saw. This indicates the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet' saw's time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr's parents due to Abu Bakr (Aisha's dad) embracing Islam.Thus the history demonstrates that the age of the marriage was lower and relative to olden times, the marriage of the Prophet was not abnormal and there was nothing immoral about it. It was a norm at biblical times to be wedded at puberty or earlier, the age of consent one century ago in a 'modern country' was as low as 10 or 12, even 7 in Delaware! Even in our times, in certain societies, the age of consent is as low as 12 or 13. In the light of historical evidences, the marriage cannot be criticized. So Have at it!!! And to believe that Muslims are IDIOTS who will go around and marry 6 year old because of this makes you sound not so smart and I am trying to be nice here. I find it quite insulting that you think Muslims run around and jjust copy everything without using their BRAINS, we do know the difference between context, history and the present. The prophet saw did not use cars at this time so I guess since we Muslims take him as a role model we should all mount our camels and ride around, because you know we MODEL EVERYTHING he did And please stop talking for Muslim Women, you know nothing about our plight or what we go through, You are not my voice, do not Speak for me, you do not represent me! I have a Voice and yeh if i were abused like you tend to believe, I think I would use it.

Muslim, Woman!!!

The argument that other peoples used to allow child marriage isn't very convincing. If Delaware or Christianity allowed patricide, we still wouldn't find patricide acceptable.

We need to make every belief system stand on its own, without regard to whatever Delaware or somebody else used to do.

The question is, is child marriage, or isn't it, supported by religious scripture or tradition?