Some thoughts on daycare

[Anonymous]

I really do not care what works for other families -- as long as you are happy, that is awesome! Also, I would never say (or think) awful things about WOHM. However, as a SAHM, I take offense at the notion that my child does not say please and thank you, is tethered to my side 24/7, and has never done an art project. She has excellent manners, she attends preschool two mornings a week, and we do craft projects all the time. I don't pretend to walk in your shoes, so please do not pretend to walk in mine..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember reading some article on the impact of "No fault Divorce" laws on society as a whole. Back in the 50s and earlier, a husband worked at his job and provided for the wife and kids. If he met someone younger and prettier and wanted to dump the first wife, he couldn't unless she was at fault (adultury, abandonment, etc.) So in order to get her to agree to the divorce, they had to come to an agreeable settlement, which usually involved using his salary to support her and the kids, keeping her on his health insurance, keeping her on his pension, etc.

When it became easier to get no faulty divorces in the 70s, guys could just ditch the stay at home wives for wife number two and not have to agree to much at all. Yeah there was some alimony and child support -- but not the health insurance, pension, etc.

This was the era when SAHwives found themselves being dropped and stuck -- no work skills etc. So many women now cite seeing what happened to their moms and promising that they would never let that happen to them; they would never drop out of the workforce for any reason because that's what makes you vulnerable if someone leaves you.

In many countries, the safety net of pension and health insurance is there whether you are mararied or not. So that makes it a lot easier for someone to stay out of the workforce for a while.

I think this is key. While we want to do whatever possible to protect our children, some women are frankly putting their children in very vulnerable positions by not working. I'm not saying everyone is, but just looking at staying home in such black and white terms as OP has seems crazy to me. Divorce is not that uncommon, and even if your husband pays child support and stays in the picture, supporting a family on one salary but two households is almost impossible for most people, and very different than supporting one household on one salary. And if not divorce, because certainly not everyone is going to get divorced, layoffs are pretty common these days. Then add in things like no pensions, the precarious health care/insurance situation and its ties to employment, and pay freezes, and staying home can be a gamble for many women and their children, even if there are husbands are doing pretty well right now.

[Anonymous]

OP your post perpetuates the 'stranger danger' belief that further isolates people. Should we keep our chidren out of schools too just because we don't want a "stranger" spending more waking time with them than we are?

[Anonymous]

Newsflash: My parents are one of 8 and one of 7. There home was basically like daycare. No mommy and me yoga and infant massage. My grandmothers had kitchents the size of my linen closet and no dishwasher. They spent a hell of a lot of time cooking, cleaning up, taking care of the house, and dealing with 7 or 8 kids.

This concept of having 2 children spaced out to dote on and cater to their every move is very new.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are no daycares in my country, the "community" pitches in to collectively raise children. There are as many working mothers as there are SAHMs but it's nothing for children to hang out at their neighbor's house until Mom and Dad came home from work. No money exchanged hands and nobody assumed silent grudges, -I don't want to watch your kids-. All the Moms in the community are considered everybody's Moms, houses are interchangeable and there is always a constant revolving door of kids in and out of neighborhood homes. Everybody knew everybody, values are similar across the board. If you got in trouble, Sally's Mom is allowed to and will discipline you the same way your Mom would and that was usually enough.

To some, the arrangement is too close for comfort but I missed that sense of community when I came to the States.

The caveat though is that my country is also not a *rich* country by American standards. People live frugally so there is no need to work crazy hours to provide for your family.

Please name your country. I am incredulous that there is no daycare in your entire country or any paid childcare arrangements with neighbors. The working mothers bring in money and the SAHM willingly watch their neighbors kids all day every work day for free? I believe that their is probably a tight community where kids are in and out of others house, adults watch out for other kids, but there is no way that every workday all over your entire country no working mom has to pay for any childcare.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I apologize for some of the language I used in my original post. I see that I should have kept some of my more emotional/personal thoughts out of the post, and I see how some of what I said sounded condescending and insulting. I am sorry for that.

I should have clarified in my original post that really what I am talking/thinking about, primarily, is daycare for kids under the age of 2 or so. A PP posted something about how this is an important time developmentally, and whomever is spending the lion's share of the time with an infant/toddler is playing a significant role in who that child will become, etc. I tend to agree with this, in general.

I'm not a homeschooler, I don't want the 1950s household, etc. I have an advanced degree, and had a professional job when I got pregnant the first time, and my intention was to put DC in daycare and return to work, which I did do. But after a month or so, I just had this intense feeling that I was really missing out by not being with DC most of the time. I also felt like DC wasn't getting a whole lot of interactive, engaging care at the daycare we had chosen. But the feeling of wanting to be taking care of DC was so strong that I actually quit my job (at which I had been for 10+ years). So now my intention is to SAH until my kids are school age, and then return to the workforce. And by SAH, I don't mean that I want them at my side 24/7, that we are just sitting in the house alone, not learning to read, etc. One goes to preschool 2 days/week; we travel quite a bit, do lots of activities, outings, etc. both just or in groups, here at home and outside of home. I just, I guess it is just hard for me to understand that all mothers didn't also have than same strong desire to take care of young DC. But it seems that all didn't/don't; and I aim to fully respect that. I completely understand the desire to be a contributor to society, a member of the workforce, etc. I don't mean to suggest that a woman's place is in the home - I just feel that, in my opinion, it would be ideal for women to be able to take a 1- to 2-year break from work after the birth of a child. As some PPs have pointed out, our government doesn't facilitate that right now.
And, as I mentioned earlier, it is hard for me to understand that there are mothers who really would not prefer to take 1-2 years off from work after birth. It is hard for me to imagine not wanting this, I think, because I felt so intensely the opposite. But I will respect that some moms feel this way.

Thanks to those who posted about the social welfare policies here in the US, and the role this may play in what I described as "degeneration of society." I see now that I sound like my grandmother complaining about "society today," and my word choice was poor. Some PPs more accurately expressed what I was getting at when they described some of our social welfare policies.

To the 16:22 poster who was so angry with me - I am sorry. I fall into that category of (relatively) new mother, new to exploring these feelings and issues. I didn't express myself well and I am sorry that I was insulting.

I understand that this is a sensitive topic. Now, I am not sure why I posted in the first place. I was just musing on things, and wanted to start a discussion. Mostly I wanted to know if there were others out there who felt the way I did. Anyway, again, I apologize for having insulted anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

You make me sad....and MAD!!!
how dare you say in one post that you are not trying to insult families that put their kid in daycare and in the same paragraph make comments like:
"It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare"
"I wanted to be the one raising DC"
"parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to people they barely know"

Are you so ignorant that you don't see how insulting that is to those of us that put our kid in daycare?
To say to me (yes, ME, who has her kid in daycare) that I'm outsourcing raising my kid is not only insulting it's ignorant and narrow-minded. Not to mention hurtful.

how about I'm broadening my kid's life? I'm finding the best people to surround my kid with? how about, my strengths are not sitting around singing "wheels on the bus," and making crafts but instead are finding the best and the brightest to raise my child the best I know how?

People like you are the reasons SAHMs have such a bad reputation. You're sitting in your house, alone, with an infant, not recognizing that you might not be choosing what's best for your kid, but rather what's best for you. Why not come back to us when your kid is 4, scared to be around anyone else but you, can't read, and doesn't know how to use scissors because he or she has never made a craft before. Then we can say how isolating your child from the world saddens US!!!

Okay...this is me again. Everyone is right and I am sorry for spewing essentially the same thing back at OP that I felt she was spewing at my choice. I know many kids from SAH parents and WOH parents who are doing fine. I just got so mad and upset that this shit is coming up AGAIN. I am so tired of feeling like I have to defend my life to someone. It's like every time there's a new mother with a newborn, I have to go through this - I have to prove once again that my kid isn't going to end up sad and lonely and hurt and unloved because I "outsource" raising my kid. And yes, i guess I'm overreacting. So, my apologies to all the SAHMs that I offended - except to OP -

No one said your child will grow up to be sad and lonely and hurt and unloved. Your anger management issue are worse for your child than being in daycare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I apologize for some of the language I used in my original post. I see that I should have kept some of my more emotional/personal thoughts out of the post, and I see how some of what I said sounded condescending and insulting. I am sorry for that.

I should have clarified in my original post that really what I am talking/thinking about, primarily, is daycare for kids under the age of 2 or so. A PP posted something about how this is an important time developmentally, and whomever is spending the lion's share of the time with an infant/toddler is playing a significant role in who that child will become, etc. I tend to agree with this, in general.

I'm not a homeschooler, I don't want the 1950s household, etc. I have an advanced degree, and had a professional job when I got pregnant the first time, and my intention was to put DC in daycare and return to work, which I did do. But after a month or so, I just had this intense feeling that I was really missing out by not being with DC most of the time. I also felt like DC wasn't getting a whole lot of interactive, engaging care at the daycare we had chosen. But the feeling of wanting to be taking care of DC was so strong that I actually quit my job (at which I had been for 10+ years). So now my intention is to SAH until my kids are school age, and then return to the workforce. And by SAH, I don't mean that I want them at my side 24/7, that we are just sitting in the house alone, not learning to read, etc. One goes to preschool 2 days/week; we travel quite a bit, do lots of activities, outings, etc. both just or in groups, here at home and outside of home. I just, I guess it is just hard for me to understand that all mothers didn't also have than same strong desire to take care of young DC. But it seems that all didn't/don't; and I aim to fully respect that. I completely understand the desire to be a contributor to society, a member of the workforce, etc. I don't mean to suggest that a woman's place is in the home - I just feel that, in my opinion, it would be ideal for women to be able to take a 1- to 2-year break from work after the birth of a child. As some PPs have pointed out, our government doesn't facilitate that right now.
And, as I mentioned earlier, it is hard for me to understand that there are mothers who really would not prefer to take 1-2 years off from work after birth. It is hard for me to imagine not wanting this, I think, because I felt so intensely the opposite. But I will respect that some moms feel this way.

Thanks to those who posted about the social welfare policies here in the US, and the role this may play in what I described as "degeneration of society." I see now that I sound like my grandmother complaining about "society today," and my word choice was poor. Some PPs more accurately expressed what I was getting at when they described some of our social welfare policies.

To the 16:22 poster who was so angry with me - I am sorry. I fall into that category of (relatively) new mother, new to exploring these feelings and issues. I didn't express myself well and I am sorry that I was insulting.

I understand that this is a sensitive topic. Now, I am not sure why I posted in the first place. I was just musing on things, and wanted to start a discussion. Mostly I wanted to know if there were others out there who felt the way I did. Anyway, again, I apologize for having insulted anyone.

Your assumption that you will just go back to work when kids start school needs to be addressed. Sure, you may find a job in your field, but it's pretty competitive out there and you will also have to really prove yourself. By opting to stay out of the workforce for a while, you may not have the same kind of flexibility that those who stayed in enjoy. When I became a mom I went down to a reduced schedule, and now that they are older I've amped back to FT but have a fair amount of flexibility with my schedule, and my career has really become so much more enjoyable than it was just a few years ago. It would have been hard to get all of that had I taken years off. So it's really not always a simple decision or just about wanting to stay home - there are so many other factors that come into play.

Not to mention my husband did get laid off in 2010 and though he was not out of work for long, those few weeks were scary, but not nearly as scary as if I hadn't been working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to share my thoughts about the concept of daycare in general. I am wondering if anyone agrees with how I feel. It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare. Daycare was my plan when I got pregnant with my first, but after a few weeks of it, I realized that I wanted to be the one raising DC and I quit my job. I am lucky that we were able to afford to get by on just DH's income. I understand that, in this country (especially in the DC area, and other metropolitan areas like it), both parents often have to work in order to be able to support their children. I'm not trying to insult any families that are doing that. My comments are more about the way we're living collectively in this country, where parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to person or persons they barely know. Is daycare a common thing in other countries, I wonder (e.g., the Scandinavian countries, where standards of living and quality of life are reported to be so high?) It just seems so unnatural to me...the idea of having people we don't know that well spend more waking hours with our little ones than we do. Sometimes I wonder if it has something to do with the general degeneration of our society (in my opinion). Thanks for listening.

You make me sad....and MAD!!!
how dare you say in one post that you are not trying to insult families that put their kid in daycare and in the same paragraph make comments like:
"It saddens me that so many of us put our kids in daycare"
"I wanted to be the one raising DC"
"parents find it necessary to outsource the important task of raising their children to people they barely know"

Are you so ignorant that you don't see how insulting that is to those of us that put our kid in daycare?
To say to me (yes, ME, who has her kid in daycare) that I'm outsourcing raising my kid is not only insulting it's ignorant and narrow-minded. Not to mention hurtful.

how about I'm broadening my kid's life? I'm finding the best people to surround my kid with? how about, my strengths are not sitting around singing "wheels on the bus," and making crafts but instead are finding the best and the brightest to raise my child the best I know how?

People like you are the reasons SAHMs have such a bad reputation. You're sitting in your house, alone, with an infant, not recognizing that you might not be choosing what's best for your kid, but rather what's best for you. Why not come back to us when your kid is 4, scared to be around anyone else but you, can't read, and doesn't know how to use scissors because he or she has never made a craft before. Then we can say how isolating your child from the world saddens US!!!

Okay...this is me again. Everyone is right and I am sorry for spewing essentially the same thing back at OP that I felt she was spewing at my choice. I know many kids from SAH parents and WOH parents who are doing fine. I just got so mad and upset that this shit is coming up AGAIN. I am so tired of feeling like I have to defend my life to someone. It's like every time there's a new mother with a newborn, I have to go through this - I have to prove once again that my kid isn't going to end up sad and lonely and hurt and unloved because I "outsource" raising my kid. And yes, i guess I'm overreacting. So, my apologies to all the SAHMs that I offended - except to OP -

No one said your child will grow up to be sad and lonely and hurt and unloved. Your anger management issue are worse for your child than being in daycare.

Um, what? This is totally irrational; guessing you are, too. Only kids who go to daycare (1) learn to read, (2) are social and well-adjusted, and (3) make crafts? Yeeaaahhhhh, ok. Enjoy your massive rationalization!

[Anonymous]

HI OP. I posted before, but I wanted to add that I understand your feelings about wanting to stay home when they are little babies. I love what I do, but there have definitely been days when I think if only I could have had a 1-2 year maternity leave and then have been able to return to my job after that. I think many of us have conflicted feelings and guilt from time to time. It doesn't change any of the good arguments people have posted about the benefits of daycare and the benefits of being a working mom. But I do think most of us have conflicted feelings.

[Anonymous]

Ok not to fuel the fire, but you are outsourcing if the kid spends the vast majority of waking hours being cared for by someone else. Saying otherwise is like having a heavy duty house cleaner once a week and then claiming you do t outsource cleaning because you wipe down the counters between cleanings. You are paying someone to take care of your kid. That is not a controversial point. My confusion comes when type a successful people claim that others are better at it. Really, so being with someone with less education, no parental connection, no real stake in it, possibly different values, is actually better for the kid? As an Ivy League graduate, really you cannot do as good a job at child care? Hard to believe. I am a lawyer but am taking time off to take care of my kids because I know that as a competent, smart, conscientious person (i.e. what made me good at my job), I am in fact the best person for the job. I was bad at delegating at work, and quickly found that delegating the child care was impossible. Many perfectionist a types (like me) claim to be less equipped than their less educated nannies with poor language skills at taking care of their children, and I call bullshit. You just don't want to do it. That's fine, but really, try something a little more believable.

[Anonymous]

The MAN is the PLAN!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some of us women put our kids in day care because we want to work. We enjoy our jobs and we enjoy contributing to business, the scientific community, the legal community, and other fields just like the menfolk do. If I win the lottery tomorrow I will not become a stay-at-home mom. I was trained to practice a profession and I'm now doing so, just like your husband. My children have high quality child care. They are doing just fine. They are developing perfectly normally.

OP, there has never been a time in history (outside of the early post-war period) that women have been expected to stay at home alone with their children. Women have ALWAYS worked outside of the home. My family comes from a traditional society in rural Africa. All of the adult able-bodied women work. They work in the fields. They work in factories. They do what they need to do to put food on the table. Children are cared for by girls and elderly women who do not have the strength or ability to do the harder work. It has always been that way. Women have always worked and other people (grannies, aunties and young girls) have always looked after people's children.

You are never going to convince the majority of women that they should stay in their homes alone with their children. Women are bright and have skills that benefit society and the economy. We are going to put those skills to use along with our husbands.

I am totally in agreement with you, sister. However, I do believe that MOST women would, if given the choice and the support, take 6 months - year off as maternity leave, then return to work. Personally, I don't have any intention of leaving the work force permanently, but I am really angsting at the idea of putting my 3 month old baby in daycare . I think there is a big difference between putting a nursing infant in daycare and a toddler in daycare, and it's pretty cruel that so many moms in the US don't have a choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok not to fuel the fire, but you are outsourcing if the kid spends the vast majority of waking hours being cared for by someone else. Saying otherwise is like having a heavy duty house cleaner once a week and then claiming you do t outsource cleaning because you wipe down the counters between cleanings. You are paying someone to take care of your kid. That is not a controversial point. My confusion comes when type a successful people claim that others are better at it. Really, so being with someone with less education, no parental connection, no real stake in it, possibly different values, is actually better for the kid? As an Ivy League graduate, really you cannot do as good a job at child care? Hard to believe. I am a lawyer but am taking time off to take care of my kids because I know that as a competent, smart, conscientious person (i.e. what made me good at my job), I am in fact the best person for the job. I was bad at delegating at work, and quickly found that delegating the child care was impossible. Many perfectionist a types (like me) claim to be less equipped than their less educated nannies with poor language skills at taking care of their children, and I call bullshit. You just don't want to do it. That's fine, but really, try something a little more believable.

Hmmm... personally I don't think my JD prepared me at all for childrearing! It's a matter of temperment, not education. And while I love babies and am pretty sure in an ideal world I would stay home for the first year, I also babysat a ton when I was I kid and I know that childcare is FREAKIN BORING! So I have no compuntions about outsourcing part of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok not to fuel the fire, but you are outsourcing if the kid spends the vast majority of waking hours being cared for by someone else. Saying otherwise is like having a heavy duty house cleaner once a week and then claiming you do t outsource cleaning because you wipe down the counters between cleanings. You are paying someone to take care of your kid. That is not a controversial point. My confusion comes when type a successful people claim that others are better at it. Really, so being with someone with less education, no parental connection, no real stake in it, possibly different values, is actually better for the kid? As an Ivy League graduate, really you cannot do as good a job at child care? Hard to believe. I am a lawyer but am taking time off to take care of my kids because I know that as a competent, smart, conscientious person (i.e. what made me good at my job), I am in fact the best person for the job. I was bad at delegating at work, and quickly found that delegating the child care was impossible. Many perfectionist a types (like me) claim to be less equipped than their less educated nannies with poor language skills at taking care of their children, and I call bullshit. You just don't want to do it. That's fine, but really, try something a little more believable.

During the week, DS, age 2, is in daycare for 6 waking hours and with me 5 waking hours. But then I also have him all weekend, when he's sick, during vacations, and on holidays. So, the vast majority of his waking life is not at daycare. Maybe as a lawyer, things are different for you, but I'm not "wiping the countertops" by having daycare. And my daycare provider has been teaching kids for more than 30 years. Hell yeah she's better at it the fundamentals than I am. I'm a work in progress. That's like saying I'd make a better lawyer than you with no legal training.