Disruptive kids. Who is at fault the teacher or the kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've posted above a few times, but I'll also say this. Classroom management is hard as heck even with an easy class. Classroom management is barely brushed upon in education programs, which is a terrible disservice to everyone. It takes years to learn, and ime, I'd say you never stop learning it. It's just hard. It's constant. It's always changing. What works with one kid won't work with another kid. What works in September might not work anymore in February. You could have your routines down pat and then, bam, in walks a new kid mid year the entire class dynamic changes. You have to be prepared as hell, you have to know when to let something go, when to stand your ground, when to apologize, when a kid needs extra TLC. One of my colleagues and I were talking about a kid he had the roughest time with. He started telling the kid he loved him. That was the thing that turned that kid around. Another colleague has a kid who is just so obnoxious and responds best to giving out praise to the kids sitting next to him, and then he will stop the obnoxious behavior because he wants to be called out too. I had one kid who got everyone else going and laughing disruptively. The only thing that worked with him is that I had his parents bring him in early once a week (15 min) and we'd read together. That did it for him. He stopped being so disruptive. Some kids need a visual schedule. Some kids need a job. For some kids, nothing seems to work.

But no one in education programs is telling you how to handle it when you have to evacuate the class once a week due to safety issues. No one is talking about the kid who walks out of the bathroom with poop in their hands trying to wipe it on things because they are angry at you. No one is teaching teachers how to deal with the child who needs so much physical input they practically vault over their desk several times a day. Heck, no one is walking through the basics like how to establish routines. I personally think becoming a teacher should be a 6 year program. I think it should go like this:
Year one: 100 observation hours in at least 4 different schools and grade levels
Year two: 4 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching one lesson each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year three: 6 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching 2-3 lessons each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year four: 8 weeks each semester in a classroom, working up to teaching one full week all lessons, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year five: Full year teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid half of what teachers make
Year six: Another full year of teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid 75% what teachers make

The United States will never professionalize teaching with the kind of prep you are suggesting because then they would have to pay us more and respect us more. Not happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

With good parenting there wouldn’t be behavior issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've posted above a few times, but I'll also say this. Classroom management is hard as heck even with an easy class. Classroom management is barely brushed upon in education programs, which is a terrible disservice to everyone. It takes years to learn, and ime, I'd say you never stop learning it. It's just hard. It's constant. It's always changing. What works with one kid won't work with another kid. What works in September might not work anymore in February. You could have your routines down pat and then, bam, in walks a new kid mid year the entire class dynamic changes. You have to be prepared as hell, you have to know when to let something go, when to stand your ground, when to apologize, when a kid needs extra TLC. One of my colleagues and I were talking about a kid he had the roughest time with. He started telling the kid he loved him. That was the thing that turned that kid around. Another colleague has a kid who is just so obnoxious and responds best to giving out praise to the kids sitting next to him, and then he will stop the obnoxious behavior because he wants to be called out too. I had one kid who got everyone else going and laughing disruptively. The only thing that worked with him is that I had his parents bring him in early once a week (15 min) and we'd read together. That did it for him. He stopped being so disruptive. Some kids need a visual schedule. Some kids need a job. For some kids, nothing seems to work.

But no one in education programs is telling you how to handle it when you have to evacuate the class once a week due to safety issues. No one is talking about the kid who walks out of the bathroom with poop in their hands trying to wipe it on things because they are angry at you. No one is teaching teachers how to deal with the child who needs so much physical input they practically vault over their desk several times a day. Heck, no one is walking through the basics like how to establish routines. I personally think becoming a teacher should be a 6 year program. I think it should go like this:
Year one: 100 observation hours in at least 4 different schools and grade levels
Year two: 4 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching one lesson each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year three: 6 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching 2-3 lessons each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year four: 8 weeks each semester in a classroom, working up to teaching one full week all lessons, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year five: Full year teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid half of what teachers make
Year six: Another full year of teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid 75% what teachers make

The United States will never professionalize teaching with the kind of prep you are suggesting because then they would have to pay us more and respect us more. Not happening.

In a career dominated by women, teachers will never get the respect or pay they deserve.

[Anonymous]

When I was a kid in a bad public school, class size was 22 students, with a main teacher and assistant student teacher. Kids with bad behavior were sent to the hall, the principal‘s office, had detention, paddled, suspended or expelled. And all of that happened regularly. Very different from today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've posted above a few times, but I'll also say this. Classroom management is hard as heck even with an easy class. Classroom management is barely brushed upon in education programs, which is a terrible disservice to everyone. It takes years to learn, and ime, I'd say you never stop learning it. It's just hard. It's constant. It's always changing. What works with one kid won't work with another kid. What works in September might not work anymore in February. You could have your routines down pat and then, bam, in walks a new kid mid year the entire class dynamic changes. You have to be prepared as hell, you have to know when to let something go, when to stand your ground, when to apologize, when a kid needs extra TLC. One of my colleagues and I were talking about a kid he had the roughest time with. He started telling the kid he loved him. That was the thing that turned that kid around. Another colleague has a kid who is just so obnoxious and responds best to giving out praise to the kids sitting next to him, and then he will stop the obnoxious behavior because he wants to be called out too. I had one kid who got everyone else going and laughing disruptively. The only thing that worked with him is that I had his parents bring him in early once a week (15 min) and we'd read together. That did it for him. He stopped being so disruptive. Some kids need a visual schedule. Some kids need a job. For some kids, nothing seems to work.

But no one in education programs is telling you how to handle it when you have to evacuate the class once a week due to safety issues. No one is talking about the kid who walks out of the bathroom with poop in their hands trying to wipe it on things because they are angry at you. No one is teaching teachers how to deal with the child who needs so much physical input they practically vault over their desk several times a day. Heck, no one is walking through the basics like how to establish routines. I personally think becoming a teacher should be a 6 year program. I think it should go like this:
Year one: 100 observation hours in at least 4 different schools and grade levels
Year two: 4 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching one lesson each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year three: 6 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching 2-3 lessons each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year four: 8 weeks each semester in a classroom, working up to teaching one full week all lessons, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year five: Full year teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid half of what teachers make
Year six: Another full year of teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid 75% what teachers make

The United States will never professionalize teaching with the kind of prep you are suggesting because then they would have to pay us more and respect us more. Not happening.

In a career dominated by women, teachers will never get the respect or pay they deserve.

I suggested the 6 year program. Of course I know it will never happen. But it's one of many things that is needed if schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've posted above a few times, but I'll also say this. Classroom management is hard as heck even with an easy class. Classroom management is barely brushed upon in education programs, which is a terrible disservice to everyone. It takes years to learn, and ime, I'd say you never stop learning it. It's just hard. It's constant. It's always changing. What works with one kid won't work with another kid. What works in September might not work anymore in February. You could have your routines down pat and then, bam, in walks a new kid mid year the entire class dynamic changes. You have to be prepared as hell, you have to know when to let something go, when to stand your ground, when to apologize, when a kid needs extra TLC. One of my colleagues and I were talking about a kid he had the roughest time with. He started telling the kid he loved him. That was the thing that turned that kid around. Another colleague has a kid who is just so obnoxious and responds best to giving out praise to the kids sitting next to him, and then he will stop the obnoxious behavior because he wants to be called out too. I had one kid who got everyone else going and laughing disruptively. The only thing that worked with him is that I had his parents bring him in early once a week (15 min) and we'd read together. That did it for him. He stopped being so disruptive. Some kids need a visual schedule. Some kids need a job. For some kids, nothing seems to work.

But no one in education programs is telling you how to handle it when you have to evacuate the class once a week due to safety issues. No one is talking about the kid who walks out of the bathroom with poop in their hands trying to wipe it on things because they are angry at you. No one is teaching teachers how to deal with the child who needs so much physical input they practically vault over their desk several times a day. Heck, no one is walking through the basics like how to establish routines. I personally think becoming a teacher should be a 6 year program. I think it should go like this:
Year one: 100 observation hours in at least 4 different schools and grade levels
Year two: 4 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching one lesson each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year three: 6 weeks each semester in a classroom, teaching 2-3 lessons each week, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year four: 8 weeks each semester in a classroom, working up to teaching one full week all lessons, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course
Year five: Full year teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid half of what teachers make
Year six: Another full year of teaching with a supervising teacher, and each semester taking a 1 credit class management course, paid 75% what teachers make

This is exactly right. The societal erosion is extreme. My mother was in a 40 student classroom with one nun and there was zero misbehavior. I am the last person to defend many aspects of the Catholic church but the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Misbehavior is a manifestation of an erosion of basic human decency and a belief that other people matter as much as I do - with these things gone, teachers have no hope of effectively dealing with poor student behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

[Anonymous]

Trump is our role model in chief. You need only look at how he behaves to see the decline in behavior overall in our society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Trump is our role model in chief. You need only look at how he behaves to see the decline in behavior overall in our society.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

Too late at night for metaphors but if you insist on figurative language then what I am saying is this: As teachers do you want to spend your time planting trees or putting out fires? I want to plant trees. Teach behavior. Teach social emotional competency. Embed it into the curriculum. I don't see it as a burden or as an 'extra".