Disruptive kids. Who is at fault the teacher or the kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.[/quote

Do you truly believe schools aren't giving huge amounts of time specifically teaching about behavior? I have used sooooooo many different curriculums on teaching kids how to manage emotions, how to self regulate, how to give other people personal space, how to deal with anger, how to deal with sadness, how to use the "calming corner" with its "calm down tools", how to use the wall to do pushups to get that deep physical stimulation some kids need. I've built relationships with kids using my lunchtime and my prep time. I've set up positive individual charts, I've used whole class and personal schedules. I've covered up toys in my room with sheets so kids aren't distracted to the point where one principal came in the room and then shook her head and sighed with exhaustion, "You'd think this was an autism room with what you have to do to manage this class." My schools have done school wide positive behavior incentives, personal and class wide too. We've literally taken photos of what it should like when walking in a line or sitting on the rug. We've done songs to review expectations. We've taught the expectations up the wazoo. We've talked with parents and had many try to collaborate with us. We've had OT people come in and give us suggestions. We've had behavior specialists come in. We teachers write kids personal notes when they are showing good behavior. We're reading stories about it, we're practicing routines. And while we certainly did not have enough play and recess in public (I used to complain long and loud about this), we do have enough in the private school I'm in now.

And it helps. Some. But not enough. And when the BCBA says, "that kid should be in a significantly more restrictive environment" but admin won't do it? What then? When the superintendent comes in to observe because the principal says, "One of the teachers is having a horrible year, will you come see the classroom for yourself?" And he comes in. And while he's there one kid is being so aggressive, he reaches across the table and quietly puts the scissors in his briefcase to prevent the kid from grabbing them and stabbing someone.

No, this is not the exception. This is the rule. MOST schools are implementing heavy, heavy, heavy behavior instruction. And sometimes? It is at the expense of academics. MOST schools, public and private, are seeing really difficult behaviors. Something is very, very wrong. I don't know what else schools can do. I don't know what else I can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was in school, disruptive kids were not much of an issue because the school and the teachers were extremely good at managing them. If there was a disruption, the teacher could remove the child quickly from the classroom and the lesson would continue.

My experience with private schools nowadays, through my child, has been very different. I see several disruptive kids who are not being effectively managed by the teacher, and those kids are eventually expelled.

So my question is: which approach is better overall? To me, there seems to be a trend toward shifting responsibility for classroom management from the teacher to the students. What do you think?

It’s always the parents responsibility … how is this even a question? Sick of the well behaved kids essentially being neglected to accommodate children who can’t behave.

Teacher here. I’m very aware of making sure the well-behaved kids are praised publicly and get to choose things first, etc. I know they still get the shaft because there is SO much misdirection which means less time for actual learning, but hopefully my students do know that they are seen and appreciated.

Praise isn’t what some of these kids need. Some of the well behaved kids have issues that end up getting missed bc the poorly behaved kids take up all the attention. I’ve seen it happen so many times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

Too late at night for metaphors but if you insist on figurative language then what I am saying is this: As teachers do you want to spend your time planting trees or putting out fires? I want to plant trees. Teach behavior. Teach social emotional competency. Embed it into the curriculum. I don't see it as a burden or as an 'extra".

I get what you are saying, but everyone used to always talk about education as a three legged stool. The parents, the teachers/school, and the student all working together to "grow the tree"... now it seems like you are trying to put it all on one leg (the teacher) and fighting a loosing battle because it is an unsupported effort which makes you feel like you are fighting fires instead of growing trees. The truth is a top school can't compensate for weak support from home. Even in top boarding schools where the school literally replaces the home, it can't fully replace the home in the sense of secure attachment and emotional security.

[Anonymous]

Everyone loves to blame teachers after they create a little monster through apathy and zero accountability. The teacher is the only one who gives a damn and they are under paid over worked and assaulted by parents, peers, and students. Then they get blamed because they let themselves be assaulted and harassed. Then fired, blacklisted, and careers ruined because parents and students want to game a system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone loves to blame teachers after they create a little monster through apathy and zero accountability. The teacher is the only one who gives a damn and they are under paid over worked and assaulted by parents, peers, and students. Then they get blamed because they let themselves be assaulted and harassed. Then fired, blacklisted, and careers ruined because parents and students want to game a system.

Yes, kids are supposed to behave like robots so the teachers are not stressed out. I saw several teachers being able to manage difficult kids in classrooms. The problem is with inexperienced teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone loves to blame teachers after they create a little monster through apathy and zero accountability. The teacher is the only one who gives a damn and they are under paid over worked and assaulted by parents, peers, and students. Then they get blamed because they let themselves be assaulted and harassed. Then fired, blacklisted, and careers ruined because parents and students want to game a system.

Yes, kids are supposed to behave like robots so the teachers are not stressed out. I saw several teachers being able to manage difficult kids in classrooms. The problem is with inexperienced teachers.

So kids are either wild and disruptive or they are well behaved “robots”? That’s very black and white thinking there.

This poor classroom behavior didn’t happen when you and I were young. And we weren’t robots. We were taught at home to obey and respect parents. I still had a good relationship with mine, but no we weren’t best friends. Parents think they need to be best friends with their kids, they don’t want their kids to cry or be upset, and they focus on the good of the individual instead of the good of the group.

[Anonymous]

Look OP, bottom line, if your kid got kicked out of school, it wasn't the teacher's fault it was your own!

Signed a parent who is not a teacher.

[Anonymous]

we need to take the truly disruptive kids into different classrooms with fewer students, OT, social workers and extra security outside the room on standby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

Too late at night for metaphors but if you insist on figurative language then what I am saying is this: As teachers do you want to spend your time planting trees or putting out fires? I want to plant trees. Teach behavior. Teach social emotional competency. Embed it into the curriculum. I don't see it as a burden or as an 'extra".

I get what you are saying, but everyone used to always talk about education as a three legged stool. The parents, the teachers/school, and the student all working together to "grow the tree"... now it seems like you are trying to put it all on one leg (the teacher) and fighting a loosing battle because it is an unsupported effort which makes you feel like you are fighting fires instead of growing trees. The truth is a top school can't compensate for weak support from home. Even in top boarding schools where the school literally replaces the home, it can't fully replace the home in the sense of secure attachment and emotional security.

Ok? But as teachers we can only work within our control. We can't control what goes on at home or how much support we will get. That's not new. You do the best you can in a pro-active way. And if you're not too tired after that (I mean that genuinely not sarcastically), you lobby for policies that make things easier both at home and at school. You lobby for more resources at school and/or more social safety nets in our country so that students are getting what they need at home. There's multiple reasons why so many countries out rank us - teachers are paid better and respected as professionals AND because in places like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, etc life at home isn't so difficult. We have the 3rd highest child poverty rate in the world. We do not support care giving as a productive contribution to society. People need to wake up to the consequences of not supporting our citizens. Those consequences are seen in our schools, in our crime stats, etc. Certain media and politicians have for decades tried to convince us who to blame (immigrants, people of color, trans people, people who are not religious enough....) which by design takes the focus off real solutions and the real cause. Until then our schools will continue to struggle as will working families and we'll just continue to complain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

Too late at night for metaphors but if you insist on figurative language then what I am saying is this: As teachers do you want to spend your time planting trees or putting out fires? I want to plant trees. Teach behavior. Teach social emotional competency. Embed it into the curriculum. I don't see it as a burden or as an 'extra".

I get what you are saying, but everyone used to always talk about education as a three legged stool. The parents, the teachers/school, and the student all working together to "grow the tree"... now it seems like you are trying to put it all on one leg (the teacher) and fighting a loosing battle because it is an unsupported effort which makes you feel like you are fighting fires instead of growing trees. The truth is a top school can't compensate for weak support from home. Even in top boarding schools where the school literally replaces the home, it can't fully replace the home in the sense of secure attachment and emotional security.

Ok? But as teachers we can only work within our control. We can't control what goes on at home or how much support we will get. That's not new. You do the best you can in a pro-active way. And if you're not too tired after that (I mean that genuinely not sarcastically), you lobby for policies that make things easier both at home and at school. You lobby for more resources at school and/or more social safety nets in our country so that students are getting what they need at home. There's multiple reasons why so many countries out rank us - teachers are paid better and respected as professionals AND because in places like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, etc life at home isn't so difficult. We have the 3rd highest child poverty rate in the world. We do not support care giving as a productive contribution to society. People need to wake up to the consequences of not supporting our citizens. Those consequences are seen in our schools, in our crime stats, etc. Certain media and politicians have for decades tried to convince us who to blame (immigrants, people of color, trans people, people who are not religious enough....) which by design takes the focus off real solutions and the real cause. Until then our schools will continue to struggle as will working families and we'll just continue to complain.

We aren't disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea of the teacher must do is misguided because they are the only ones actually doing their role in this scenario... it's the rest of the system that needs to step up, not individual teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The ways in which children and teens (and adults) behave is directly correlated to their social -emotional competency. When a student exhibits unwanted or inappropriate behavior they are demonstrating a lack in a skill or skill set related to one or more of the five social -emotional competencies. It takes a village to develop these competencies - parents, teachers, and schools. If you want less behavior problems in schools start with proactively coaching these competencies as a matter of intention as well as embedded throughout the learning experiences of the school day. And, any discipline should include further coaching. Punishment doesn't teach a skill.

This is exactly right! And if schools gave as much attention to the proactive side of positive behavior development as they do on reading and math, not only would behavior improve but so would literacy in reading, writing, math, science, etc. You actually need those social emotional competencies not just for how you conduct yourself but also to be a good learner.

Yes to both posts. Finally! 30+ year educator here. I have always been baffled as to why we don't teach behavior. We want students to read well sober teach reading. We want them to understand history and geography so we teach social studies. We want them to have number sense and spatial sense and computational fluency so we teach math. We want them to behave well so let's just have a management system of rewards and punishments rather than teach them how to behave???? And if that doesn't work we will just blame parents or the kids themselves. No!

Teach behavior. Teach students to be socially and emotionally competent - self management, self awareness, social awareness, responsible decision making, and relationship skills.

Respectfully, as a SAHM of a 3 year old whose existence basically centers around teaching him proper behavior (and all the other things you mentioned) as much as possible before sending him to school in the fall... teaching math and letters is waaaaaaaay easier... he is ahead on math and letters... we are only predictably good behavior through the produce section of the grocery store... after that it is basically a race through a minefield of potential opportunities for him to completely fall apart...

Ya'll do so much as it is, can schools/teachers really take on the burden of teaching behavior on top of their current workload?

We already do take on this burden because we deal with misbehavior ever day. So we can either take on the "burden" proactively by teaching behavior or we can take it on reactively with our silly rewards and punishment systems and the time we still have to take each day responding to disruptive behavior.

I think what you are saying is, I'm trying to justify balancing on one leg when I was promised a stool... so that one leg needs to get stronger... when in reality, that is the strong leg, the other 2 legs need to pull their weight...

Too late at night for metaphors but if you insist on figurative language then what I am saying is this: As teachers do you want to spend your time planting trees or putting out fires? I want to plant trees. Teach behavior. Teach social emotional competency. Embed it into the curriculum. I don't see it as a burden or as an 'extra".

I get what you are saying, but everyone used to always talk about education as a three legged stool. The parents, the teachers/school, and the student all working together to "grow the tree"... now it seems like you are trying to put it all on one leg (the teacher) and fighting a loosing battle because it is an unsupported effort which makes you feel like you are fighting fires instead of growing trees. The truth is a top school can't compensate for weak support from home. Even in top boarding schools where the school literally replaces the home, it can't fully replace the home in the sense of secure attachment and emotional security.

Ok? But as teachers we can only work within our control. We can't control what goes on at home or how much support we will get. That's not new. You do the best you can in a pro-active way. And if you're not too tired after that (I mean that genuinely not sarcastically), you lobby for policies that make things easier both at home and at school. You lobby for more resources at school and/or more social safety nets in our country so that students are getting what they need at home. There's multiple reasons why so many countries out rank us - teachers are paid better and respected as professionals AND because in places like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, etc life at home isn't so difficult. We have the 3rd highest child poverty rate in the world. We do not support care giving as a productive contribution to society. People need to wake up to the consequences of not supporting our citizens. Those consequences are seen in our schools, in our crime stats, etc. Certain media and politicians have for decades tried to convince us who to blame (immigrants, people of color, trans people, people who are not religious enough....) which by design takes the focus off real solutions and the real cause. Until then our schools will continue to struggle as will working families and we'll just continue to complain.

We aren't disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea of the teacher must do is misguided because they are the only ones actually doing their role in this scenario... it's the rest of the system that needs to step up, not individual teachers.

Must do more*

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone loves to blame teachers after they create a little monster through apathy and zero accountability. The teacher is the only one who gives a damn and they are under paid over worked and assaulted by parents, peers, and students. Then they get blamed because they let themselves be assaulted and harassed. Then fired, blacklisted, and careers ruined because parents and students want to game a system.

Yes, kids are supposed to behave like robots so the teachers are not stressed out. I saw several teachers being able to manage difficult kids in classrooms. The problem is with inexperienced teachers.

DP. I’ve watched so many young teachers quit. You say the problem is with inexperienced teachers. Sure. Fine. But the simple fact is teachers aren’t sticking around long enough to gain experience anymore. Some students exhibit horrid behavior, the likes of which new teachers couldn’t even imagine would happen. I’ve seen teachers pushed, kicked, cursed at, held against walls. And this is at the high school level, where teenage students can seriously hurt an adult.

Should the inexperienced teachers be faulted for that behavior? Are you going to respond that they should have “connected with the student more,” “praised the student more,” or that they should “remember that these are just kids”?

We have a serious problem in schools. Blaming the brave souls who have decided to tackle it isn’t going to fix things. Teachers need support, respect, and the ability to remove students when the are disruptive or dangerous.

[Anonymous]

If a teacher has good classroom management and is organized and talented. Why would they want to remain a teacher for such low $. They can transfer those skills into all sorts of careers that pay more and have no parents in the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s awful. I’m on a group chat for the grade and the moms are constantly complaining about one teacher. “Jackson says she yells all the time and he feels uncomfortable at school. I’ve complained to the principal but nothings getting done. She won’t let him sit with his friends” Jackson is a disruptive little jerk and the teacher is at her wits end!!! Tell your kid to listen to his teacher instead of always taking his side!

This is kind of the point though. How is the parent actually supposed to know what is happening in the classroom? How does she from afar "correct" the kid for conduct she can't see and doesn't know about? Jackson is manipulating mom, or maybe truly feels they way he does and can't see the bigger picture. What is the teacher telling mom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s awful. I’m on a group chat for the grade and the moms are constantly complaining about one teacher. “Jackson says she yells all the time and he feels uncomfortable at school. I’ve complained to the principal but nothings getting done. She won’t let him sit with his friends” Jackson is a disruptive little jerk and the teacher is at her wits end!!! Tell your kid to listen to his teacher instead of always taking his side!

This is kind of the point though. How is the parent actually supposed to know what is happening in the classroom? How does she from afar "correct" the kid for conduct she can't see and doesn't know about? Jackson is manipulating mom, or maybe truly feels they way he does and can't see the bigger picture. What is the teacher telling mom?

Genuinely if I knew "not being allowed to sit with friends" was part of my kids core problem... I would be on the teachers side 🤣 even if my kid isn't the problem, someone in that friend group is for sure! If it isn't my son, moving him away is a blessing. If it is him, I wanna have a conversation with the teacher cause I need to have a conversation with my son.