How to talk to DH about my feelings?

[Anonymous]

If he makes enough to outsource things such that you could do less but want him to make up the difference, this is not a fair demand to make of him. If he makes more but demands that you live well below your means, then he’s a jerk and you need a counselor to hash things out. But it’s an important difference: you can’t make yourself a martyr and try to force him to stop working early if he’d be fine paying to reduce the burden on both of you.

[Anonymous]

Most marriages after 20 years is not all fun and romantic. You're married to a workaholic. It could be worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I feel like a task manager and household employee. I’d like him to participate more in family life. I’d also like him to show more interest in us as a couple and not just housemates/parents (although he has plenty of interest in sex!)

But for example if I ask him to be more involved (or really involved at all) in meal planning and dinner prep and to please finish work in time to do this I basically get told that he way out earns me (true) and that he is the main dog walker (also true but why does that have to do with what I am asking?)

Look, I don't doubt that you do the majority of the mental load. And bringing up income in that context is a dick move. But it sounds like you've got to really sit down and be objective about the division of labor. Dog walking is a helpful contribution. Obviously, he should be doing considerably more than that but is there a chance that it's not realistic for him to take on more dinner prep due to work obligations? Is that something that could be outsourced on the nights you can't (meal delivery service)?

My DH helps with dinner on the weekend but he commutes and I work remotely. It makes sense that I generally do it. On the other hand, he is the point person on the kids sports and drives them to most practices. I think the key is that I didn't try to micromanage any of it. He's a perfectly competent adult. But I know if I had stayed over involved, he would feel like I didn't trust him to do it. That happened a couple of times early in parenthood and I can see how it creates a lot of friction and resentment on both sides if you're not self aware about it. One person feels overburdened and the other decides learned helplessness is the path of least resistance. Any chance that has contributed to your dynamic now? If it's really miserable, I agree that therapy can help you both gain some insight.

Therapy does not help anyone become less lazy.
Therapy is about getting the therapee to accept that the situation by accepting their own fallacious decision making that brought them to this point in their life. The marital dynamics might be more peaceful.
But the laziness continues and might get worse because the spouse's form of acceptance might be to join in on the laziness. The house becomes a mess the kids become ashamed of the place they call home. You can see this on some of those hoarder shows and/or hoarders who are profiled for stories about de-cluttering. Both spouses fall into a self-reinforcing pattern.

When I was little, our upstairs neighbor wasn't quite a hoarder but the family totally gave up on any semblance of cleanliness. They seemed like a fun loving hippie family but their house was just gross and the kids unkempt. Their daughter had both legs in casts for years, there was surely some flaky parenting going on for that to have happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we get insight into what the 'flaws' were? I think the context may be relevant.

Maybe do a couple of the same group at one go?

But surely after 20 years he’s aware of his shortcomings and the setbacks they cause in you and the household. And been told of them and to shape up.

He doesn’t care. He’s lazy about this. About changing his bad habits and faults.

Plus he’s immature when told he dropped the ball against and you must fix it, and be yelled at if you bring up a concern. Yuck.

+1

Deal w it OP. Afterall you’re twenty years in or

Divorce.

That husband of yours is not changing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure he is not having an affair?

I mean I guess no one can be certain but he mostly works from home and we share all our passwords and I could look at his phone any time. He hasn’t done anything to raise my guard in that sense. He just gets some weird motivation from making big piles of money that he won’t spend. And the more he works the more he makes.

OP, are your own insecurities getting projected here? You also expressed earlier that your job is not relevant financially— maybe these are signs that you’re not appreciating yourself enough. Maybe it’s time to lean into your own career or other interests more. That would surely be more fun and interesting than fighting.

You’re also misconstruing what sharing feelings means. Statements like “I feel like a task manager and household employee” and “I’d like him to participate more in family life” are not sharing actual feelings. They’re veiled criticisms. If you’re sad and miss him, share that. If you’re angry, share that, and try to be specific without launching into character flaws. No one wants that (as you noted when you said he then turns the spotlight back on you). He’s much more likely to shift based on your sharing real feelings and specific things you’d like to change rather than broad criticism.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Without him getting defensive and launching into a list of my faults? He's then so mad that I DARED point out his flaws that he doesn't hear what my initial concerns were. And yes I do this when things are calm and not already worked up. I try to use a lot of "I feel" statements and all that stuff.

So we are stuck in this pattern of my suppressing things that bother me because it doesn't do any good to say them out loud anyway.

Married 21 years, mid 40's, two teenagers.

Don’t bother. He’s a self centered a-hole.
Hard to believe you still find his disrespect attractive enough to keep sleeping with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most marriages after 20 years is not all fun and romantic. You're married to a workaholic. It could be worse.

This “it could be worse” thing is BS.

He doesn’t pass the low low bar as it is. Not marriage material. Live parallel lives or divorce. He’s a deadweight to you,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you sure he is not having an affair?

I mean I guess no one can be certain but he mostly works from home and we share all our passwords and I could look at his phone any time. He hasn’t done anything to raise my guard in that sense. He just gets some weird motivation from making big piles of money that he won’t spend. And the more he works the more he makes.

OP, are your own insecurities getting projected here? You also expressed earlier that your job is not relevant financially— maybe these are signs that you’re not appreciating yourself enough. Maybe it’s time to lean into your own career or other interests more. That would surely be more fun and interesting than fighting.

You’re also misconstruing what sharing feelings means. Statements like “I feel like a task manager and household employee” and “I’d like him to participate more in family life” are not sharing actual feelings. They’re veiled criticisms. If you’re sad and miss him, share that. If you’re angry, share that, and try to be specific without launching into character flaws. No one wants that (as you noted when you said he then turns the spotlight back on you). He’s much more likely to shift based on your sharing real feelings and specific things you’d like to change rather than broad criticism.

Good luck.

He’s not going to suddenly behave like an adult at home. He never has. His mother let him skate by and so did his first wife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I feel like a task manager and household employee. I’d like him to participate more in family life. I’d also like him to show more interest in us as a couple and not just housemates/parents (although he has plenty of interest in sex!)

But for example if I ask him to be more involved (or really involved at all) in meal planning and dinner prep and to please finish work in time to do this I basically get told that he way out earns me (true) and that he is the main dog walker (also true but why does that have to do with what I am asking?)

There is a correlation between working more and earning more, so you trying to micromanage his work hours to him likely makes him feel like you don't value that genuine contribution he makes to your household. He's also observing that you have, for whatever reason, taken on different household tasks -- you seem dismissive of the dog walking, for some reason, but that's a daily chore, at least twice a day. I bet he gets up earlier than you to do it in the morning, as well.

The fact that you describe yourself as feeling like a "task manager" suggests you've also set up a dynamic where you act like you're in charge and he needs to perform the tasks you want done, while he is focused on others he sees as needing done. It also wouldn't surprise me that if and when he has done these tasks of yours in the past, you've complained he's done it "wrong" or at least not to your specifications.

These aren't "flaws" and it sounds like he feels attacked, despite your use of "I" statements, which can often feel like thinly veiled accusations couched in therapy speak.

I understand your frustration, but you're going about this the wrong way.

[Anonymous]

OP, here's an approach you haven't done -- go away. You have to be gone more. No drama. No big announcement re: this pivot. There must be loved ones you can/should visit. Alone. Let the household operate without you -- and no knocking yourself out getting everything arranged ahead of your absence.

You're resentful. Take charge of your resentment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is bringing up income in the context of household responsibilities a dick move?

If she works outside of the home as much as he does but makes way less, that seems like an opportunity for her to do fewer hours working - because the household finances won't take so much of a hit - and reduce her overall workload.

If her lower income is a reflection of fewer hours worked outside the home, then its fair to consider that in terms of equitable overall workload.

That shouldn't be the whole discussion. I can totally see guys blowing off any concerns at all about equitable contributions to the household. (Sounds a lot like OP's husband is doing just that.) But I don't see why relative income is off limits entirely.

Because it is a dick move. I work full time. I make more than my husband, and still do more at home. It never occurred to me to bring money into "division of labor" talks. One, even though he makes less, he is working hard and his job simply doesn't lend itself to working fewer hours. It's always men who feel that simply because they bring in a paycheck, they can do little or nothing at home.

My husband and I have flip flopped over the years as to who makes more, but we have always viewed things as who is working how many hours? When I'm busier at work, then he picks up the slack, even if he out-earns me. When he's busier at work, then I pick up the slack, even if I out-earn him. When we're both busy, we come up with ways to cut corners so we can both survive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I feel like a task manager and household employee. I’d like him to participate more in family life. I’d also like him to show more interest in us as a couple and not just housemates/parents (although he has plenty of interest in sex!)

But for example if I ask him to be more involved (or really involved at all) in meal planning and dinner prep and to please finish work in time to do this I basically get told that he way out earns me (true) and that he is the main dog walker (also true but why does that have to do with what I am asking?)

This has a lot to do with what he is asking. Can he cover all of the bills and payments with just his salary or does he need a contribution from you? If he needs a contribution and you have to work the same amount of hours to get that contribution then he should be working the same amount of hours towards home stuff as you or contributing the cost towards a maid service to even out the hours you put towards home life.

What if OP wants to work? I wouldn't have had kids with a man who wasn't willing to be an equal parent on the home front because I wasn't going to give up my job for the kids and the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is bringing up income in the context of household responsibilities a dick move?

If she works outside of the home as much as he does but makes way less, that seems like an opportunity for her to do fewer hours working - because the household finances won't take so much of a hit - and reduce her overall workload.

If her lower income is a reflection of fewer hours worked outside the home, then its fair to consider that in terms of equitable overall workload.

That shouldn't be the whole discussion. I can totally see guys blowing off any concerns at all about equitable contributions to the household. (Sounds a lot like OP's husband is doing just that.) But I don't see why relative income is off limits entirely.

Because it is a dick move. I work full time. I make more than my husband, and still do more at home. It never occurred to me to bring money into "division of labor" talks. One, even though he makes less, he is working hard and his job simply doesn't lend itself to working fewer hours. It's always men who feel that simply because they bring in a paycheck, they can do little or nothing at home.

I don't get this. Maintaining a household requires a certain combined level of effort. Part of that effort is doing the sort of work that generates the money necessary to finance the household. It's arbitrary to ignore that slice of the effort when discussing overall division of labor.

So, in your mind, even though we both work 40+ hours outside of home, one of us gets a pass on a whole lot of stuff because one of us brings in a bit more? So let's say I'm a nurse working on my feet all day long and bring in 70K (I'm not a nurse and don't really know how much they make, just using it as an example) and he is a lawyer working in house making 300K, he gets to come home and prop his feet up while I have to take on a second job at home becasue my profession is not as lucrative. I can guarantee that a nurse is working 10 times harder than an in-house lawyer.

+100

I'm a lawyer and my best friend is a kindergarten teacher. I earn 8 times what she does but her job is much, much harder than mine (I can also do mine from home). If I were married to her, I would not expect that she do 8 times more work at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is bringing up income in the context of household responsibilities a dick move?

If she works outside of the home as much as he does but makes way less, that seems like an opportunity for her to do fewer hours working - because the household finances won't take so much of a hit - and reduce her overall workload.

If her lower income is a reflection of fewer hours worked outside the home, then its fair to consider that in terms of equitable overall workload.

That shouldn't be the whole discussion. I can totally see guys blowing off any concerns at all about equitable contributions to the household. (Sounds a lot like OP's husband is doing just that.) But I don't see why relative income is off limits entirely.

Because it is a dick move. I work full time. I make more than my husband, and still do more at home. It never occurred to me to bring money into "division of labor" talks. One, even though he makes less, he is working hard and his job simply doesn't lend itself to working fewer hours. It's always men who feel that simply because they bring in a paycheck, they can do little or nothing at home.

I don't get this. Maintaining a household requires a certain combined level of effort. Part of that effort is doing the sort of work that generates the money necessary to finance the household. It's arbitrary to ignore that slice of the effort when discussing overall division of labor.

So, in your mind, even though we both work 40+ hours outside of home, one of us gets a pass on a whole lot of stuff because one of us brings in a bit more? So let's say I'm a nurse working on my feet all day long and bring in 70K (I'm not a nurse and don't really know how much they make, just using it as an example) and he is a lawyer working in house making 300K, he gets to come home and prop his feet up while I have to take on a second job at home becasue my profession is not as lucrative. I can guarantee that a nurse is working 10 times harder than an in-house lawyer.

DP

In general, I agree that number of hours worked is more relevant than income. But this is a bit different - in this specific scenario, she's asking him to finish work in time to help with dinner, ie, earlier than he's finishing already.

If there is one person dominating the income (let's use your $70k/$300k example) then, yes, asking them to leave earlier brings the income into the conversation. If you're supporting the bulk of the family's economic need, then you may need to stay as late as you need to stay, and asking that person to step out at a particular time to make dinner for fairness reasons seems unwise.

Sure, but I think there's more to it than that. I start working early because I stop earlier a few days a week. If my husband slept until 9 because he didn't want to start working until 10 and then said, oh, I can't be off at 6 to help with dinner, I'd him to get out of bed to be able to get his hours in and be more present at home.

I don't think OP has provided nearly enough information, so I can see both sides, although I agree that simply saying he makes more was unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Yes the teens help, and yes we can afford to outsource. That’s not really the point. I would like him to just be a more active member of our family. He used to be more involved, when the kids were younger and he worked fewer hours (but still a lot.)

And no I don’t pressure him to work this much, we live on significantly less than he makes and I’m fine with that. My income is basically irrelevant - I do it because I like it and it helps keep me sane.

I feel like Jen Anniston in that movie where she screams “I want you to WANT to do the dishes!” except it’s not dishes. It’s more that I want him to WANT to have a more active role in our lives. He’s leaned too much into almost a Don Draper/1950’s mentality and I don’t like it or want it.

Ah, this was very helpful. You have to learn that let that go. You cannot want someone to want to do something - the best you're going to get is that they're going to do it. So start by adjusting your expectations.

Also, if he used to be more involved when he worked less, can you, instead of giving him vague statements that make it sound like you want him to do the dishes more, ask him how he feels about spending less time with the family? Can you prioritize the things he would like to do? I imagine those would be more eating dinner with the family than making dinner for the family, but at least you could discuss it.