Why is the patriarchy still alive and well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

The idea that men are incapable and inefficient at household duties is myth. Of course your husband never cared about learning how to manage a household, he saw his mother do it all for him and then you happily stepped into the role to do the same. And then of course your daughters will do the same and leave the workforce while your sons never learn to do chores or manage a household.

household.

Ooh, I have an idea. Let's shame women for their decisions! That will improve things....

There is nothing in this comment that is shaming anyone. It is explaining how the patriarchy perpetuates itself.

Why don’t you examine why this reality makes you feel so defensive and triggered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

Being a mother kinda IS our role, men can't carry, birth or nurse babies. We do need to be compensated for that. Household and child raising are where men need to step up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because some women uphold it. Particularly mothers of sons.

+1
And some women don't want to lose the social status attached to their rich white man. I've seen many SAHMs who love to brag about their husband's career as if it were their own accomplishment.

+100.

These women believe that they are secondary beneficiaries from the advantages their husbands have for being white men of a certain age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymousquote wrote:

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

This would be 100% true for me as well!

Amen but needs to be changed. My brother works from home so naturally takes more responsibilities of children and household than his wife who needs to commute (WFH isn't an option), my mom always praises him like he is Mother Teresa, unlike me and my sister who also are doing the same. I think it's insulting to him, us and his wife, even though we all understand she means well and praises it because most men doesn't step up like him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

Which society is better for working parents? Friends in Europe struggle with the same issues and they have much lower salaries that don’t allow for as much paid help. I’m not sure there is really a solution as long as there are only 24 hours in a day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because some women uphold it. Particularly mothers of sons.

+1
And some women don't want to lose the social status attached to their rich white man. I've seen many SAHMs who love to brag about their husband's career as if it were their own accomplishment.

It kinda is. They wouldn't be there if they were dealing with diapers, playdates, dinners, doctor's appointments etc on daily basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

Being a mother kinda IS our role, men can't carry, birth or nurse babies. We do need to be compensated for that. Household and child raising are where men need to step up.

This is where complications arise. Men/society take advantage of women’s vulnerability during the childbearing and caretaking years. Women are undervalued and under compensated during this time and they end up falling behind men and other singles financially and professionally, unless they kill themselves with doing everything. We need to actively discourage our daughters from having children unless they have an overarching desire to do so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

Men don't "outsource" enforcement of the patriarchy onto women. Women enforce culture.

We don't have patriarchy. We have culture. You just dislike part of it and call it something else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

The idea that men are incapable and inefficient at household duties is myth. Of course your husband never cared about learning how to manage a household, he saw his mother do it all for him and then you happily stepped into the role to do the same. And then of course your daughters will do the same and leave the workforce while your sons never learn to do chores or manage a household.

household.

Ooh, I have an idea. Let's shame women for their decisions! That will improve things....

There is nothing in this comment that is shaming anyone. It is explaining how the patriarchy perpetuates itself.

Why don’t you examine why this reality makes you feel so defensive and triggered.

Not defensive, or triggered. I was merely using sarcasm to point out what you are doing to perpetuate the patriarchy. Seriously.

[Anonymous]

Because not everyone is miserable and many people, including women, benefit from the patriarchy. Many women have no desire to hold leadership positions, climb the corporate ladder and take on a traditionally male role in life. This is difficult for many women in liberal circles to understand.

I grew up in a conservative and relatively affluent area where most women stayed home. I’m not convinced my current life is any better and may actually be worse. I’m resentful I’m expected to have children and also a high earning career. Many of my childhood friends stay home with kids and have never had successful careers. They seem happier and not any worse off financially.

I have friends in Northern Europe where there’s much greater equality between the sexes and these couples seem especially unhappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

This is interesting and I wonder HOW you teach your daughter about society's misogyny without teaching her she's less than?

I hope I'm not teaching my daughter she's less than. I consider myself a feminist and I point out sexism to her. But at the same time I tell her society will judge her negatively for every it judges a man favorably. If she's slightly a sloppy eater 'she has no manners' vs 'he's great eating with utensils'. Or, the classic - speak up ...
but not too loud nonsense. I've already told her she will have to work twice as hard for half as much credit (this is my experience) and when she starts to be successful, women (and some men), will come out of the woodwork to push her down. She is already seeing this, but I hope it's not because I taught her to view herself as less. I want her to see what's behind the microaggressive behaviors in society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

This is interesting and I wonder HOW you teach your daughter about society's misogyny without teaching her she's less than?

I hope I'm not teaching my daughter she's less than. I consider myself a feminist and I point out sexism to her. But at the same time I tell her society will judge her negatively for every it judges a man favorably. If she's slightly a sloppy eater 'she has no manners' vs 'he's great eating with utensils'. Or, the classic - speak up ...
but not too loud nonsense. I've already told her she will have to work twice as hard for half as much credit (this is my experience) and when she starts to be successful, women (and some men), will come out of the woodwork to push her down. She is already seeing this, but I hope it's not because I taught her to view herself as less. I want her to see what's behind the microaggressive behaviors in society.

Ouch. Poor girl. So much nonsense that you are teaching her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because not everyone is miserable and many people, including women, benefit from the patriarchy. Many women have no desire to hold leadership positions, climb the corporate ladder and take on a traditionally male role in life. This is difficult for many women in liberal circles to understand.

I grew up in a conservative and relatively affluent area where most women stayed home. I’m not convinced my current life is any better and may actually be worse. I’m resentful I’m expected to have children and also a high earning career. Many of my childhood friends stay home with kids and have never had successful careers. They seem happier and not any worse off financially.

I have friends in Northern Europe where there’s much greater equality between the sexes and these couples seem especially unhappy.

Me too!!! (Bolded only)

Boomers lied to GenX. We can't have it all. There's no way! I think I have as close as one could get, but I sacrificed my career potential to get it, although I still have a good career, it's not AS GOOD. I also don't remember as much of my second child's infancy and developmental milestones, because I was too exhausted to enjoy it. My husband does as much as I do with the kids and house. We outsource a great deal and have a good income. We're good but not great at our jobs, good but not great as parents, and I'm a pretty crappy daughter to be honest. I need to vacation because I'm overworked, so I only visit my parents 2x/year - they won't vacation with us and rarely visit us (they feel that's my role), and I have limited time off. I also am so tired I struggle to cultivate friendships outside my immediate circle (kids' schools, work, neighborhood).

[Anonymous]

My mom didn’t benefit from patriarchy and had to support us herself because my dad started a secret side family, but she reinforced all of the gender norms and expectations when it came to me and my brother.