Is this accommodation or neglect? Long.

[Anonymous]

I'm an experienced elementary school teacher, with a son who has Asperger's. My question is not about my ds or a student, though-- it's about my college roommate's ds. I am not trying to throw shade on my roommate, or her ds. I have been concerned about him since he was a toddler, and am even more concerned now that he's less than a year from starting middle school.

Roommate's ds, "John," is a young public school 5th grader. Next fall, he moves to a 6-8th grade school. My roommate, "Jane," is still one of my best friends. Neither she nor her dh had any real experience with kids before John was born. They were thrilled to have him, and thought everything he did was the best thing in the world.

John's behavior was problematic even when he was a toddler, but Jane's adoration and lack of experience kept her from noticing any issues. Her dh loves the kid, but doesn't spent that much time with him. John was a "terrible two" to the max-- not listening or obeying at all, running off, jumping into dangerous or forbidden situations, aggression, purposely breaking things, etc. He appeared to be doing a lot of this deliberately-- but of course, it's hard to tell with a little kid, and a lot of that behavior was age-appropriate.

Jane seemed to have trouble setting limits with him. I did not want to be a busybody or a "sanctimommy," so I tried to stay out of that-- I made a few casual suggestions, mom-to-mom, and tried to lead by example. It really didn't work. Jane didn't want to stifle his spirit, and she seemed convinced that his complete disregard for rules, safety, or the rights of others was proof of his intelligence and creativity.

John is intelligent and creative, for sure, but as he grew, he continued to use those powers to exasperate others and destroy their property. Jane finally started to get a wake-up call when he was almost denied entry to kindergarten, and the school wanted him to be assessed.

He's had 3 evaluations and seen a few counselors and psychologists. They don't seem to be able to agree on the problem. They've agreed he has some anxiety, have ruled out (for now) autism, flirted with the idea of ODD (or something like it), and went back and forth on ADHD. At this point, he doesn't have an actual diagnosis, but he is getting some accommodations at school.

I'm no stranger to IEP's and 504 plans. I haven't read/seen John's list of accommodations myself, just heard about them from Jane. They're mainly typical ADHD type supports like extra time and personal reminders. Ok-- finally, here's the meat of my post. What concerns me is that he doesn't seem to have any behavioral supports or goals! As Jane explains it, they basically let him do anything he wants, behaviorally, as long as he's passing (which he is). As an example, Jane said the teachers and students don't even blink an eye when John walks on top of classroom tables!

Before I continue, let me say that I've been with John in many environments, many times, and Jane has told me stories of how he behaves other times and places. His behavior is pretty much the same everywhere. He still acts like a toddler, except now he's got a pre-teen's size, smarts, and attitude. He still runs off, but now Jane can't always catch him. He still punches and kicks, but now he can really hurt someone! He still purposely breaks stuff, climbs on things that aren't for climbing, etc, but now he can do more damage.

I've worked with many, many kids, and I can honestly say that John is the worst-behaved, most defiant kid I've ever known.

I was astonished when Jane told me the school lets him act that way. I gingerly suggested that, diagnosis or not, they were doing John a disservice by letting him act like that. That teaching him skills to control himself, and holding him accountable for his behavior was their JOB, and that they were actually neglecting him by letting him carry on like that (I also am concerned that Jane and her dh's PARENTING is having the same effect, but I don't want to lose a friendship, plus "glass houses" and all...).

Jane actually agreed with me-- though she said she didn't know what to do about it. She's worried about how he'll do in middle school, as puberty/adolescence hits, and as an adult. He not only seems to have no self-control or regard for others, he doesn't see why he SHOULD temper his behavior or be concerned about anyone else.

Anyone have a comment about this situation, or advice I can pass on to Jane?

[Anonymous]

Mind your own business in less she is asking for help. Yes, it is normal for schools not do anything or provide support. Yes, it is normal to get multiple evals and many different diagnosis with no one agreeing. Yes, they need to change their parenting but he is ok and they are not going to so move on. You cannot change it for them and if they planned to do something they would have done it before.

[Anonymous]

If you are a really good friend, then the next time "Jane" brings it up with you, take it as an entry to make time and a private place to have a good and honest discussion with her about what you have shared here from the point of view of "an experienced teacher" and not just a friend. You need to have a few key and very specific steps that your friend could take and you might even just keep a card for what professional or school number she should call in her area to get started or suggestions based on your ideas as a teacher.

From what is shared by you via Jane, at the school level, I would request a meeting of at least the teacher, the principal and her husband to go as a couple because your friend sounds like she would be rather ineffective even asking where to begin. As a couple they need to relate the behaviors and why they have been allowed in the school setting. At the same time, I would tell her request a full evaluation by the school division to get an IEP in place before middle school starts. As it stands now they are just passing him along.

Or the other approach that might be also recommended would be to give her the names of a couple of good centers that do full scale evaluations on children as this sounds like a complex case or at least a neuro-psychologist or developmental pediatrician to do an evaluation if the couple would be better off starting with and getting a report from jsut one person to begin with. I might suggest an evaluation by the kind of doctor at age 10 you think would be most likely to pick up on the key developmental/behavioral issues which the couple could then use to start the ball rolling with a full-scale evaluation for an IEP. The way you present all three are in for a rude awakening and shortly, as the bigger he gets and the more powerful the punch - the impact of the inaction on others and on this child, too, only grow. And, it might just be worth it to take a chance on sharing advice and resources to contact as well as having "no friend" at least for a time. Silence in this instance since you are an experienced professional may not be the best golden rule to follow.

[Anonymous]

If, and only if she asks, I would recommend she hire a very well trained advocate or specialist that could point her in the right direction as far as what she can and should expect from the school system and possibly give her

[Anonymous]

You've obviously already had a heart to heart on this and know her well enough to have seen his IEP. Tell her to ask for behavioral goals to be added. She can also see a therapist to help her with her parenting skills. I definitely understand why she's trying to outsource it to the school--it sounds exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Accommodation? Neglect? Huh????

[Anonymous]

OP again. To clarify, Jane is worried about John, and she does want to know what I have to say about the situation.

I am hesitant to say too much or go too far-- because she still has a knee-jerk reaction that John is practically perfect, and that anyone who says otherwise is to be ignored or avoided.

Because I have a slightly older son with autism, I think that (at least in John's early years) she thought my suggestions that John's behavior was off was just sour grapes. In other words, that because my son had his own behavior issues, I was trying to find fault with her son.

I want to help Jane and John if I can. I'd like to present her wisdom and advice (mine and other parents') without freaking her out so that she won't listen, or will want to end our friendship.

[Anonymous]

With that further clarification, there is probably little that you can offer. Either Jane or both she and DH will only react negatively towards your suggestion and perhaps for the same earlier reason you mentioned. Just be there as a friend as things may shake out in middle school. I find it hard to believe that some of the behaviors you describe such as walking on desks is really happening by a 10 year old and further being allowed to happen. Another aspect is that maybe John will get a good punch back from a peer when he lets loose some time that will finally knock some sense into his parents that his behavior is off and only going to have negative consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
With that further clarification, there is probably little that you can offer. Either Jane or both she and DH will only react negatively towards your suggestion and perhaps for the same earlier reason you mentioned. Just be there as a friend as things may shake out in middle school. I find it hard to believe that some of the behaviors you describe such as walking on desks is really happening by a 10 year old and further being allowed to happen. Another aspect is that maybe John will get a good punch back from a peer when he lets loose some time that will finally knock some sense into his parents that his behavior is off and only going to have negative consequences.

+1. It's hard to believe that OP is talking about a 10 yr old. If he's been having these problems since before K and his parents are still being defensive, there's really nothing you can say. Also, would love to know what school lets a 5th grader walk on desks and dismiss other unacceptable behaviors as long as the kid "passes". What kind of school is this?

[Anonymous]

You can't stage manage this child's IEP.

[Anonymous]

My two cents, which might be worth even less.

1) You express dual concerns here, both about the parenting choices and the school. Important to keep those distinct in your mind.

2) You probably need to let go of the ongoing concerns about the parenting. No parents are perfect, you can't know as much as the parents about what they are facing with this child, and even if you did you wouldn't be in a position to enforce any insights you have. Other than providing a sympathetic ear and responding to solicitations of direct advice, you should try to get to a place where you accept the other parent's choices even if they're different from the ones you would make.

3) The school is another matter, because the parent seems to be expressing concerns. If you share her concerns, it's perfectly fine to say so if she asks. And if she asks for help in searching for a new school or in how she should approach her current school, by all means offer your thoughts. It's totally fine to suggest to your friend that she put on the table whether additional behavioral goals and supports should be part of the IEP. PP is right that you can't "stage manage" the IEP but that doesn't mean you can't make suggestions for your friend to consider.

[Anonymous]

Believe me when I say that (1) MCPS (don't know about other school districts) will not give him special Ed services unless he is failing academically, hurting people, or destroying property.

(2) MCPS will call the police and have the child detained or charged criminally if he hurts someone.

(3) Mcps will do whatever it takes (in terms of pushing him out) to ensure that he passes his classes, regardless of whether he is actually learning anything or making progress academically.

It's a shame: the kids with behavioral difficulties are placed in the most punitive restrictive environments, which often leads to worse downward spiraling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
With that further clarification, there is probably little that you can offer. Either Jane or both she and DH will only react negatively towards your suggestion and perhaps for the same earlier reason you mentioned. Just be there as a friend as things may shake out in middle school. I find it hard to believe that some of the behaviors you describe such as walking on desks is really happening by a 10 year old and further being allowed to happen. Another aspect is that maybe John will get a good punch back from a peer when he lets loose some time that will finally knock some sense into his parents that his behavior is off and only going to have negative consequences.

+1. It's hard to believe that OP is talking about a 10 yr old. If he's been having these problems since before K and his parents are still being defensive, there's really nothing you can say. Also, would love to know what school lets a 5th grader walk on desks and dismiss other unacceptable behaviors as long as the kid "passes". What kind of school is this?

OP here. I hesitated to post, because I thought I'd be called a troll, but it is true. I've seen John act this way ALL of the many, many times we've been together. I wouldn't believe that a school would put up with it either. I mean, I've seen students at my school asked to leave for much less. My ds was asked not to come back to a summer camp for much less.

I still assume that John can't be behaving NEARLY as off the hook at school as he does other places, but the behaviors Jane told me his teacher reported are incredible! I'm not saying he never gets in trouble at school, and obviously, they wanted him to be evaluated in the first place, but I'm amazed and confused by what they let him do. It's a regular classroom in a well-regarded public school.

As for the parenting, I don't know what to say. Jane and her dh are smart and level-headed, but there's some kind of disconnect there that can no longer be explained by being new parents. I know it's not under my control, and it's barely my business, but it's like watching a car crash.

[Anonymous]

A lot of SN kids behave a lot better at school than they do at home. In fact a lot of kids do. This is due to a variety of factors. Some kids hold it together at school and then lose it at the end of the day at home due to the strain of keeping it together. Or some kids' medications wear off at the end of the day. Some educators are more skilled/experienced than parents (like your friend) at handling misbehavior and will not put up with it, so kids know the rules and the consequences and do in fact act better. It's easier for a teacher to give a consequence than it is for a parent. It just is.

And if this boy walked on a table a few times at school, it seems that the school dealt with that effectively and appropriately. I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Validation that he is a troublemaker at school as well as at home? A chance to micromanage his IEP? Hectoring the mother?

OP, what are your goals in this situation? This isn't reality tv. This is a young boy. You say you are an educator. Students don't get "asked to leave" public schools. If a placement is inappropriate, that placement is changed.

I've followed your post for the last couple of days and while I don't think you are a troll, I think you are mean-spirited and I seriously question your good will in this situation. You say this is like watching a car crash. Well, you remind me exactly of people who gather around a car crash to rubberneck, for absolutely no reason -- MOVE ON. Drop this friend because you are not a friend to her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A lot of SN kids behave a lot better at school than they do at home. In fact a lot of kids do. This is due to a variety of factors. Some kids hold it together at school and then lose it at the end of the day at home due to the strain of keeping it together. Or some kids' medications wear off at the end of the day. Some educators are more skilled/experienced than parents (like your friend) at handling misbehavior and will not put up with it, so kids know the rules and the consequences and do in fact act better. It's easier for a teacher to give a consequence than it is for a parent. It just is.

And if this boy walked on a table a few times at school, it seems that the school dealt with that effectively and appropriately. I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Validation that he is a troublemaker at school as well as at home? A chance to micromanage his IEP? Hectoring the mother?

OP, what are your goals in this situation? This isn't reality tv. This is a young boy. You say you are an educator. Students don't get "asked to leave" public schools. If a placement is inappropriate, that placement is changed.

I've followed your post for the last couple of days and while I don't think you are a troll, I think you are mean-spirited and I seriously question your good will in this situation. You say this is like watching a car crash. Well, you remind me exactly of people who gather around a car crash to rubberneck, for absolutely no reason -- MOVE ON. Drop this friend because you are not a friend to her.

Sigh. This is the kind of response I was dreading. I think I've been pretty damn clear about WHY I'm posting, and what I wanted to accomplish. If you reread what I said, you'll see that the child's PARENT told me that he acts the same way at school as he does elsewhere. I didn't post every single inappropriate behavior that John does at school (that Jane told me, that the TEACHER told her), because I wasn't there to see them. But, I believe Jane (what reason would she have to EXAGGERATE her son's behavior at school?).

Also, they are like family to me, and I have SEEN how John acts. I have been given dirty looks and sharp words when we go out, because of him. Many times we've had to cut outings short because he was out of control (restaurants, playgrounds, museums, grocery stores). My son loves John, but acts worse when John is around. Whenever they visit, I have a huge cleanup and a garbage bag full of broken stuff when they go. I may be a doormat for putting up with it, but I am not a bad friend!

I posted on an anonymous board, trying to balance discretion with giving enough detail for everyone to understand the situation-- because I am worried about this kid, and it FINALLY looks like Jane might be in a place to receive advice. So, I wanted to get as much good advice from the DCUM SN forum as I could. I would like to help STOP the "car crash," if possible. If I was in that position, I'd like someone to do the same for me. I've gotten tons of good advice about my ASD son from other parents.

As for students being asked to leave public schools, yes, that is actually possible. However, I teach at a PRIVATE school (don't assume, please).

I KNOW everything you said in your first paragraph, because as I said, I am an experienced educator, and have my own SN kid. In fact, I'm generally the "SN Whisperer" (my colleagues' term, so don't yell at me) in our elementary department. I am the teacher who is given the challenging kids, and I'm often asked for advice when a SN/discipline issue comes up in someone else's class. I'm sure you won't believe that but it is true.

I don't think I implied anywhere that I wanted to micromanage John's IEP (how on earth would I, even?). I have helped build students' IEPs and 504 plans. I have been through the whole process with my ds, so the lack of behavioral supports and goals raised a red flag for me. As I said in my first post, I'm worried that his school isn't giving him the education he needs and deserves. I wanted to hear what others thought.

I'm mystified at what I've done that shows I'm "not a friend" to Jane. She's lost friends because of John, but I've stuck with her. I don't gossip about her and John (unless you're counting this thread, which is just strange). I'm willing to risk our longstanding friendship to try and improve her son's schooling (and possibly adult outcome). Whatever.

Thank you to the posters who actually offered help.