When are Herndon Middle and Herndon High going to get a break?!??

[Anonymous]

Good points here, 2nd PP.

1st PP is apparently frustrated because her child is in the boundary for a school of high FARMS. I'm not sure if she is white or not. But, she certainly seems to resent the kids that go to Langley. I'm not sure if there is more than one posting that, but someone keeps insisting on sending Forestville kids to Herndon and will not accept that the location and logistics justify that boundary. I understand the frustration. But, there is certainly a cohort of high achievers at Herndon High. It is large enough to support both. Maybe, she has a SIL or someone who brags about Langley and is ticked off because of that.

Well, someone feeling bad because another person flips her hair when she says her kids attend X school is a terrible reason to redraw boundaries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't answer all your questions but when McNair was overcrowded, the decision was made to move these neighborhoods to Herndon ES. HES tanked immediately and remains one of the lowest performing schools in the state. The F/R rate went from 25ish to today's 64%. Is this a coincidence or would you agree that the low performance has something to do with the poverty? Money has been thrown at HES for years. It's not the solution. Mc Nair used to be Title 1 before the boundary change. Now they're at less than 20% F/R. Carson MS is at 10%. Why can't boundaries be changed so that impoverished students are spread across more schools? The Herndon pyramid has most of the poverty in this area and if others help, more students can be reached.

There is no question that poverty is related to academics. However, why would the kids be any less poor if you spread them across more schools? i assume that Herndon is a Title I school, so the kids should be getting more help there. The classes are smaller, for one thing.
And, I just looked at the boundary maps for Herndon and McNair. The boundaries appear logical.

Busing does not work.

To the first quoted:

It seems you are saying the reputation of the school immediately fell due to the influx of poorer students.
You do not assert that the other children experienced a decrease in their academic performance.
You say that Herndon elementary has been given plenty of money to raise performance, but that it isn't helping.

I have to agree with the second quoted that spreading kids across more schools would not make them any less poor. If more resources isn't changing the performance, it stands to reason that scattering them won't help either. It would merely change how long some of them are on buses and how easily their parents can reach school for meetings or after school activity pickups. (I would think that for some children the difference in transit time would be negligible)

You seem to be saying that the FARMS kids should be spread out for the purpose of bringing the performance stats down at some schools down and raising them at others. "The Herndon pyramid has most of the poverty in this area and if others help, more students can be reached." Reached how? They ARE being reached. Results are not guaranteed, but money and attention are given now.

[Anonymous]

To the first quoted:

It seems you are saying the reputation of the school immediately fell due to the influx of poorer students.
You do not assert that the other children experienced a decrease in their academic performance.
You say that Herndon elementary has been given plenty of money to raise performance, but that it isn't helping.

I have to agree with the second quoted that spreading kids across more schools would not make them any less poor. If more resources isn't changing the performance, it stands to reason that scattering them won't help either. It would merely change how long some of them are on buses and how easily their parents can reach school for meetings or after school activity pickups. (I would think that for some children the difference in transit time would be negligible)

You seem to be saying that the FARMS kids should be spread out for the purpose of bringing the performance stats down at some schools down and raising them at others. "The Herndon pyramid has most of the poverty in this area and if others help, more students can be reached." Reached how? They ARE being reached. Results are not guaranteed, but money and attention are given now.

This.

And, FWIW, Herndon has far from the "poorest" demographics in FCPS. If you check Herndon High, it is balanced.

[Anonymous]

The school pyramids that are poorer than Herndon have been that way for a long time. The Herndon schools flipped big and more recently, so you’re going to have more people who bought houses thinking they were getting balanced schools only to find their kids zoned for high-poverty schools.

Don’t know why they think Langley pyramid families will come to their rescue when Langley is under-enrolled. Sure there are kids traveling long distances to get to Langley, but that’s large to be expected given the location of Langley and other schools (Oakton is another high school where, for similar reasons, almost everyone who goes there lives west of the school). I could see them cleaning up Langley’s boundaries to eliminate the little pockets of Vienna, Herndon, and Reston south of Route 7 that are zoned for Langley, but that won’t change much at Herndon and they’d have to make up the difference by sending more kids from Tysons/McLean to Langley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The school pyramids that are poorer than Herndon have been that way for a long time. The Herndon schools flipped big and more recently, so you’re going to have more people who bought houses thinking they were getting balanced schools only to find their kids zoned for high-poverty schools.

Don’t know why they think Langley pyramid families will come to their rescue when Langley is under-enrolled. Sure there are kids traveling long distances to get to Langley, but that’s large to be expected given the location of Langley and other schools (Oakton is another high school where, for similar reasons, almost everyone who goes there lives west of the school). I could see them cleaning up Langley’s boundaries to eliminate the little pockets of Vienna, Herndon, and Reston south of Route 7 that are zoned for Langley, but that won’t change much at Herndon and they’d have to make up the difference by sending more kids from Tysons/McLean to Langley.

NP. I DONT HAVE KIDS AT EITHER SCHOOL but I’m following this out of interest. It’s a social experiment watching both sides go at it when both have the same ultimate goal: to give their kids the best. I personally do think the boundary line should change to give Herndon a fighting chance of “evening itself out” again. Just a few reasons why moving these Langley kids to Herndon:
1) parent involvement
2) donations to PTA
3) school spirit/community feel that the school is lacking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t you get it: bussing is already happening but since it’s the smart, white kids from the richest parts of Herndon and Reston (and yes even Western GF!) being bussed 45 minutes to a rich, white school, somehow THAT is okay. Give Herndon a fair shot by forcing those rich, smart, white kids to “get off the bus” and go to their neighborhood school!

That is absolutely not the same thing at all. That is transportation. We've been through this before. There is no other logical way to populate Langley--although, some McLean kids should probably be sent there. I don't understand why that is not happening.

Busing is done to "balance" schools. It didn't work in the past and it won't work now.
Why? Busing poor kids out of their neighborhoods is not effective. It makes it far more difficult for the families who are already struggling.

This is a housing issue. Not a school issue. But, relax, when the Silver Line is built, Herndon will change.

It is exactly the same thing, just in reverse. Stop being obtuse because it doesn't fit what you want. You can bus kids from poor neighborhoods to wealthier schools, or bus kids from wealthier neighborhoods out of poor schools. It all involves riding a bus to a school that might not be the closest to your house. I don't believe anyone is proposing kids ride a bus across the county, but perhaps the boundaries can be adjusted some to stop the concentration of poverty. I realize you don't want to accept this. The reality is that some Langley kids have some of the longest bus rides in the county already, so if we don't want to "bus" them they need to go to Herndon.


As for why you don't concentrate poor students - see the FCPS study from about 6 years ago that says school results (thus student results) take a turn for the worse around 20% F/R lunch and drop hard at 40%. Plus there is the positive influence of having high achievers around kids who might otherwise not have that modeled. So no, you shouldn't concentrate poverty, but that is exactly what FCPS has done.

Our federal government needs to crack down on illegal immigration because the poor students showing up in Fairfax and other local jurisdictions are by and large not US citizens (or certainly their parents are not). Not against immigration in general, but the pace is killing us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don’t you get it: bussing is already happening but since it’s the smart, white kids from the richest parts of Herndon and Reston (and yes even Western GF!) being bussed 45 minutes to a rich, white school, somehow THAT is okay. Give Herndon a fair shot by forcing those rich, smart, white kids to “get off the bus” and go to their neighborhood school!

That is absolutely not the same thing at all. That is transportation. We've been through this before. There is no other logical way to populate Langley--although, some McLean kids should probably be sent there. I don't understand why that is not happening.

Busing is done to "balance" schools. It didn't work in the past and it won't work now.
Why? Busing poor kids out of their neighborhoods is not effective. It makes it far more difficult for the families who are already struggling.

This is a housing issue. Not a school issue. But, relax, when the Silver Line is built, Herndon will change.

It is exactly the same thing, just in reverse. Stop being obtuse because it doesn't fit what you want. You can bus kids from poor neighborhoods to wealthier schools, or bus kids from wealthier neighborhoods out of poor schools. It all involves riding a bus to a school that might not be the closest to your house. I don't believe anyone is proposing kids ride a bus across the county, but perhaps the boundaries can be adjusted some to stop the concentration of poverty. I realize you don't want to accept this. The reality is that some Langley kids have some of the longest bus rides in the county already, so if we don't want to "bus" them they need to go to Herndon.


As for why you don't concentrate poor students - see the FCPS study from about 6 years ago that says school results (thus student results) take a turn for the worse around 20% F/R lunch and drop hard at 40%. Plus there is the positive influence of having high achievers around kids who might otherwise not have that modeled. So no, you shouldn't concentrate poverty, but that is exactly what FCPS has done.

Our federal government needs to crack down on illegal immigration because the poor students showing up in Fairfax and other local jurisdictions are by and large not US citizens (or certainly their parents are not). Not against immigration in general, but the pace is killing us.

Well said. I’d love to read that study. Do you have any more info?

[Anonymous]

^^ +1 Well said and I agree with the post. I believe the study you're referring to is the "tipping point" study. And, if you look at the SOL test scores, they are generally lower across all demographics than at schools with lower poverty with the exception of the 20ish Geometry students at HMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The school pyramids that are poorer than Herndon have been that way for a long time. The Herndon schools flipped big and more recently, so you’re going to have more people who bought houses thinking they were getting balanced schools only to find their kids zoned for high-poverty schools.

Don’t know why they think Langley pyramid families will come to their rescue when Langley is under-enrolled. Sure there are kids traveling long distances to get to Langley, but that’s large to be expected given the location of Langley and other schools (Oakton is another high school where, for similar reasons, almost everyone who goes there lives west of the school). I could see them cleaning up Langley’s boundaries to eliminate the little pockets of Vienna, Herndon, and Reston south of Route 7 that are zoned for Langley, but that won’t change much at Herndon and they’d have to make up the difference by sending more kids from Tysons/McLean to Langley.

NP. I DONT HAVE KIDS AT EITHER SCHOOL but I’m following this out of interest. It’s a social experiment watching both sides go at it when both have the same ultimate goal: to give their kids the best. I personally do think the boundary line should change to give Herndon a fighting chance of “evening itself out” again. Just a few reasons why moving these Langley kids to Herndon:
1) parent involvement
2) donations to PTA
3) school spirit/community feel that the school is lacking

Who has said that Herndon High School lacks school spirit and community feel? If you have no children there, what is your source?

How would school spirit/community feel be improved by sending children there who aren't interested in being there and whose parents wanted them somewhere else?
_____________
Certainly the original poster of this thread wouldn't argue that flooding the PTA with highly active, "bully" parents is a good idea?

[Anonymous]

No you are correct - we don’t want the bully parents. But maybe those parents will send their kids to private school or move (which they were very quick to suggest us in Herndon do!). Then a new generation of families will move it and have Herndon pride again!

[Anonymous]

As for why you don't concentrate poor students - see the FCPS study from about 6 years ago that says school results (thus student results) take a turn for the worse around 20% F/R lunch and drop hard at 40%. Plus there is the positive influence of having high achievers around kids who might otherwise not have that modeled. So no, you shouldn't concentrate poverty, but that is exactly what FCPS has done.

FCPS is at 30% FARMS as a whole.

It is impossible to bring every school below the 20% tipping point.

I haven't yet read the study and will try to find it to read later today. But, the point is that FCPS needs to accept the fact that we are not the school system of the past and educate the kids where they are.
You mention "there is the positive influence of having high achievers around kids who might otherwise not have that modeled." That applies to onesies and twosies.

If FCPS tries to even out every school, they will be making boundary adjustments every year as neighborhoods change.

[Anonymous]

So no, you shouldn't concentrate poverty, but that is exactly what FCPS has done.

No. FCPS has not done that. It has evolved over time. And, it has evolved naturally. IB has not helped the situation and it is time for the SB to recognize that. It has enabled Pupil Placement (in or out, depending on the school.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No you are correct - we don’t want the bully parents. But maybe those parents will send their kids to private school or move (which they were very quick to suggest us in Herndon do!). Then a new generation of families will move it and have Herndon pride again!

Why can't you have Herndon pride now?

Are you incapable of having pride without the presence of Great Falls families?

How many Great Falls families do you require for Herndon pride?

What is your plan for coping psychologically if too large a percentage of Great Falls students go private if their parents aren't satisfied (in the event that the boundaries are redrawn to assign some GF housing for Herndon)? Apparently there are nearby districts that have a good number of umc neighborhoods zoned for high FARMs schools, and those families are content to stay in their neighborhoods and send their children to private schools. GF is a lovely neighborhood and many would choose private over the inconvenience of moving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So no, you shouldn't concentrate poverty, but that is exactly what FCPS has done.

No. FCPS has not done that. It has evolved over time. And, it has evolved naturally. IB has not helped the situation and it is time for the SB to recognize that. It has enabled Pupil Placement (in or out, depending on the school.)

You need to look at some of the boundary changes that have occurred in the past 15 years. West Springfield - Lee. Annandale - Lake Braddock - Woodson. Thoreau - Jackson. They have definitely done their part to concentrate poverty. And that can also include not making changes and instead adding capacity. Mt. Vernon - West Potomac is one. Basically, they have favored moving wealthier students to wealthier schools because parents don't fight that, but if a move is needed the other way they have decided to add capacity.

[Anonymous]

What is wrong with Herndon now?

Doesn't it offer plenty of AP classes? Is this an issue?

Please. What is the issue?