How Harvard discriminates against Asian Americans in college admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I can't understand why people think working and studying hard is a negative trait.

[Anonymous]

It is if you miss out on learning other things like emotional and social skills. My dad had the highest gpa in his med school class but patients frequently chose another doctor because he was arrogant, condescending and rude. There are actually skills your kid can learn from waitressing that are as valuable as ten extra sat points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is if you miss out on learning other things like emotional and social skills. My dad had the highest gpa in his med school class but patients frequently chose another doctor because he was arrogant, condescending and rude. There are actually skills your kid can learn from waitressing that are as valuable as ten extra sat points.

Right, because Asians who have high GPAs don't have emotional and social skills. Racism, much? I'm sorry that your dad was a dick but that has nothing to do with being a high performer. Being academically focused doesn't make someone actively cruel to other people.

-Asian with a high GPA who also waitressed (hs) and bartended (college)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I think you are missing the poster’s point. He or she is saying that it may not be worth it to do school at the expense of everything else in life just to get an extra few points. The poster seems to be questioning whether it is worth it. I totally agree that hard work is a positive personality trait. But i’m Not sure some of the things my child’s friends go through are worth an extra few points. My child has recounted several friends’ stories about abuse (physical and emotional), lack of any academic freedom or autonomy (parents choose classes and tell the child what they are going to do to prepare, which includes cram school), choosing and restricting the child’s college major, etc. the kids she knows excel academically but they are depressed and anxious. They have no joy. My child does very well and will go a good school (not ivy) but she is happy and well adjusted. Is it worth what her friends are going through to get into Ivy over another good school (assuming they do because it’s not a sure thing for anyone)? I say no. And I think that is the point this poster is trying to make. Any kid who is doing well enough to be a serious contender for an ivy is working hard. With very few exceptions, that is the baseline. You have to bring something else to the table.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I think you are missing the poster’s point. He or she is saying that it may not be worth it to do school at the expense of everything else in life just to get an extra few points. The poster seems to be questioning whether it is worth it. I totally agree that hard work is a positive personality trait. But i’m Not sure some of the things my child’s friends go through are worth an extra few points. My child has recounted several friends’ stories about abuse (physical and emotional), lack of any academic freedom or autonomy (parents choose classes and tell the child what they are going to do to prepare, which includes cram school), choosing and restricting the child’s college major, etc. the kids she knows excel academically but they are depressed and anxious. They have no joy. My child does very well and will go a good school (not ivy) but she is happy and well adjusted. Is it worth what her friends are going through to get into Ivy over another good school (assuming they do because it’s not a sure thing for anyone)? I say no. And I think that is the point this poster is trying to make. Any kid who is doing well enough to be a serious contender for an ivy is working hard. With very few exceptions, that is the baseline. You have to bring something else to the table.

Look, 'your kids' friend' is not everyone. That is just a racist construct that you are putting out there to justify your own prejudice. You do you, but don't pretend about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I think you are missing the poster’s point. He or she is saying that it may not be worth it to do school at the expense of everything else in life just to get an extra few points. The poster seems to be questioning whether it is worth it. I totally agree that hard work is a positive personality trait. But i’m Not sure some of the things my child’s friends go through are worth an extra few points. My child has recounted several friends’ stories about abuse (physical and emotional), lack of any academic freedom or autonomy (parents choose classes and tell the child what they are going to do to prepare, which includes cram school), choosing and restricting the child’s college major, etc. the kids she knows excel academically but they are depressed and anxious. They have no joy. My child does very well and will go a good school (not ivy) but she is happy and well adjusted. Is it worth what her friends are going through to get into Ivy over another good school (assuming they do because it’s not a sure thing for anyone)? I say no. And I think that is the point this poster is trying to make. Any kid who is doing well enough to be a serious contender for an ivy is working hard. With very few exceptions, that is the baseline. You have to bring something else to the table.

Look, 'your kids' friend' is not everyone. That is just a racist construct that you are putting out there to justify your own prejudice. You do you, but don't pretend about it.

I totally agree that my child’s friends are not everyone, but your experience is not universal either. The discussion was about whether intense pressure and things like cram school are worth it. I say no. Perhaps you say yes. It actually has nothing to do with race. I know white families that do the same types of things and plenty of Asian families that don’t do any of those things. So go ahead and call me a racist. You are only showing your knee jerk reaction and inability to think critically and put your own stereotypes aside. I’m talking about conduct, about a parenting method that I disagree with. Go ahead if you want to justify child abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I think you are missing the poster’s point. He or she is saying that it may not be worth it to do school at the expense of everything else in life just to get an extra few points. The poster seems to be questioning whether it is worth it. I totally agree that hard work is a positive personality trait. But i’m Not sure some of the things my child’s friends go through are worth an extra few points. My child has recounted several friends’ stories about abuse (physical and emotional), lack of any academic freedom or autonomy (parents choose classes and tell the child what they are going to do to prepare, which includes cram school), choosing and restricting the child’s college major, etc. the kids she knows excel academically but they are depressed and anxious. They have no joy. My child does very well and will go a good school (not ivy) but she is happy and well adjusted. Is it worth what her friends are going through to get into Ivy over another good school (assuming they do because it’s not a sure thing for anyone)? I say no. And I think that is the point this poster is trying to make. Any kid who is doing well enough to be a serious contender for an ivy is working hard. With very few exceptions, that is the baseline. You have to bring something else to the table.

DP.. I'm with you, and I'm Asian. However, what Harvard is doing is still wrong. Whether that extra few hours of studying is worth it or not is not the point of the case or the thread.

I'm not angling for my kids to get into an elite school. But, I'm not going to look down on others for wanting that for their kids. Some are saying that Asian Americans shouldn't be so hung up on getting into an elite school, and why bother reaching for it. Why not tell the URM and the white student the same thing? Why bother working hard and reaching for an elite school? Just be well rounded and go to a state school.

At what point is "too much studying"? An extra hour, two, four? I have no idea how many students only just study and have no social life. If they study an extra hour a day, wouldn't that still leave time for socializing? And certainly, these students have excellent e.c.s, so it's not like they are doing nothing but studying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to a very Asian HS. The grades and scores they get are to be taken with a grain of salt. Many Chinese go to "Cram School" . Parents actually would request next year's text books early and they would go to a Cram school 40 hours a week all summer learning mextd years material.

The white, black and Hispanic kids enjoyed summer. No Cram school.

So is a 98 worth more than a 96 if the 96 did no Cram school? Well no one will confess to Cram school but in personality assessment it kinda shows up.

But...but...hard work is a positive personality trait!

It is. Would you rather work with lazy people ?

I can't understand why people think working and studying hard is a negative trait.

Cram school is lazy. Intellectually lazy. The time spent in cram school could be spent on activities that promote real personal growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:low personality scores? That's gotta be one of the most racist factors, ever. Yet, somehow it's OK to tolerate this-- Asians are the victims of discrimination the same way Catholics are bashed on this site. Not acceptable. I'm not Asian.

Personality scores are determined through the interview. That's why students are interviewed. I think it's a fair metric. You can't just go by test scores to admit an entire class. Life is based on personal interaction...not a number.

Appears that the interview scores are higher than what admissions used,so not personal interaction at all. These are kids that will be successful anyway, but, the racial markdown is not at all OK.

The personality score is based on recommendations, essays, and interviews. The interviews are the lowest weighted part. There is no evidence of a racial markdown, just that on average, Asian-Americans had lower scores. And averages tell you nothing about individuals. Asian-Americans as a group had higher extracurricular scores exclusively because they were more likely to participate in math/science clubs and playing musical instruments -- they were less likely to participate in everything else. These aren't activities that give opportunity to demonstrate leadership, empathy, and the other traits the personality score is trying to capture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:low personality scores? That's gotta be one of the most racist factors, ever. Yet, somehow it's OK to tolerate this-- Asians are the victims of discrimination the same way Catholics are bashed on this site. Not acceptable. I'm not Asian.

Personality scores are determined through the interview. That's why students are interviewed. I think it's a fair metric. You can't just go by test scores to admit an entire class. Life is based on personal interaction...not a number.

Appears that the interview scores are higher than what admissions used,so not personal interaction at all. These are kids that will be successful anyway, but, the racial markdown is not at all OK.

The personality score is based on recommendations, essays, and interviews. The interviews are the lowest weighted part. There is no evidence of a racial markdown, just that on average, Asian-Americans had lower scores. And averages tell you nothing about individuals. Asian-Americans as a group had higher extracurricular scores exclusively because they were more likely to participate in math/science clubs and playing musical instruments -- they were less likely to participate in everything else. These aren't activities that give opportunity to demonstrate leadership, empathy, and the other traits the personality score is trying to capture.

Damn what a fantastic analysis. Lets do this for Blacks

There is no evidence of a racial discrimination, just that on average, Blacks tend to commit more crimes. And averages tell you nothing about individuals. Blacks as a group had higher participation in crimes because they were more likely to value gangsterism-- they were less likely to participate in everything else like education. These aren't activities that give opportunity to demonstrate good citizenship, empathy, and the other traits that upright individuals possess.

[Anonymous]

When my kid did stanley kaplan sat prep, she met a boy in her class who was 11. He wasn't a genius applying to college at 12. His parents wanted to make sure he got into the johns hopkins gifted program and he said that he took stanley kaplan every year.
When my son toured the univ
of rochester there was an asian american family on the tour whose oldest kid was 11.
The thing is thst most of us don't have unlimited time and money. Stanley kaplan is 700 dollars for six weeks. Spending money on cram schools and college tours for little kids presumably means less money and time for other things.

We also know families where the kids are told their job is school so they do no household chores and definitely no summer jobs. Seems like this type of environment might create less interesting people as well as selfish ones

[Anonymous]

High-achieving Asian-American applicants who play a musical instrument and want to concentrate in a STEM field are a dime a dozen. Kids who fit that profile are competing against one another, and only the ones who are true outliers or offer something else distinctive will gain admission. Harvard offers a liberal arts curriculum at the UG level and consequently looks for an array of disciplinary interests and talents. They are looks for future award-winning anthropologists, authors, artists and history scholars as much as for future doctors and engineers. Statistically, the pool for each of the former categories is less deep.

[Anonymous]

I am not Asian but grew up in a neighborhood with lots of rich asians and had tons of asians work for me over the years. I have been to asia a few times for work.

They really study hard and even their hobbies are work. Piano, Photography, Violin etc. Skilled level, hours and hours and hours of study and thousands in cost.

While I was in Asia at a business meeting my boss almost killed me when I was asked what my hobbies were and I said I like going to football games and, I enjoy going to parks and beaches with my kids.

He was like you need hobbies that impress. You should talk about Art, Opera, Science etc. I was like how about I like fast cars, rock concerts and chicken wings. No does not work that way.

Even going to a restaurant was an ordeal with where to sit, who orders, explanations of food. I am like hey lets grab a burger and beer.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if you people who think tutoring and prepping are bad are also the ones who tout how their schools have a high GPA/SAT score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When my kid did stanley kaplan sat prep, she met a boy in her class who was 11. He wasn't a genius applying to college at 12. His parents wanted to make sure he got into the johns hopkins gifted program and he said that he took stanley kaplan every year.
When my son toured the univ
of rochester there was an asian american family on the tour whose oldest kid was 11.
The thing is thst most of us don't have unlimited time and money. Stanley kaplan is 700 dollars for six weeks. Spending money on cram schools and college tours for little kids presumably means less money and time for other things.

We also know families where the kids are told their job is school so they do no household chores and definitely no summer jobs. Seems like this type of environment might create less interesting people as well as selfish ones

I see some Jewish and Russian people doing something similar.