Parents of boys who became incels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do we think upwards of 25% of boys are labeled as ADHD in elementary school? They grow up in an environment built for girls for 7 hours a day and are medicated to stay quieter. Our society no longer understands or appreciates little boys and this is the natural outcome.

Well, no. It's the boys (and their parents, and society's expectations/ tolerance level) that have changed. Sitting quietly and respectfully for a full school day used to be the norm. There was an ironclad expectation from schools and parents alike that children, boys included, behave themselves in class. This was true from the earliest days of congregate education, up until, well, now. Even when I was a kid, when ADHD meds were rare but corporal punishment was a thing of the past, there was nothing like the chaos that reigns in today's classrooms at every level. So it's not even that we used to beat them into compliance (though of course we did-- it just wasn't the only factor.)

So boys are no longer expected to sit quietly and do their work. And yet they still expect to win at everything, when girls following the rules and doing the work are right there modeling the behavior that used to be expected of all students. The only explanation for this is that parents have abdicated their responsibility to raise respectful humans, and communicated to their boys the sense of entitlement-- the right to be wild, to play rough, to denigrate their teachers-- and the understanding that this will not affect their futures.

Want better men? Raise better boys. Shelve the excuses.

You can say this until you’re blue in the face but until there is a shift in how society views and treats little boys (re read your own post for example), boys will continue to gravitate towards “cool men who get me!” like the idiot MRA guys.

The discussion is about how to prevent boys from becoming incels, right? So you've shot down better parenting/ more engagement, and you've shot down higher expectations. Unless you have a society-changeinator device, I guess all that's left is giving up. Tried nothing and you're all out of ideas.

We had many of these problems solved decades ago. Just need to eliminate the new stuff that doesn’t work. For instance, the obsession with showing work in math is a complete waste of time. In math, you’re right or wrong. That’s it. Adding words to the solution changes it away from a math problem.

While I am not entirely persuaded math alone leads boys to life as incels, there is certainly a contribution to toxic masculinity coming from the rigidity of mathematics as it exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have you wanted the show Adolescence on Netflix? I assume that's where this is coming from.

I think that was a very specific situation, and nothing the parents did or didn't do caused it. [u] They should have better addressed his anger and control; but I don't believe from that fictionalized case that being an incel was caused by his parents.

For my son's, they see a respectful household. We respect all people and their boundaries. More rights for women and equality for all races, genders, sexual orientations does not mean less rights for straight, biological males. That respect goes both ways. They see kindness in action and verbalized.

I don't think this was a the point of that series. The point is that they let him shut himself up in his room. They didn't spend time with him. They didn't insist he let them in and share their lives. They admitted to themselves and to each other that they could have done better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys need
A mom at home.
Almost zero screen time.
Male and female friends, in real life.
A good education, either at home or in a private school.
Lots of fresh air every day.

If you're not doing that, you're gonna have a bad time. Bottom line.

I found the right wing incel. Be for real. Mom at home isn't happening in this economy. Public schools have better educated teachers than private schools that require minimal education and training.

I want responses from real people who live in the real world.

I know. Public schools have been doing a great job.

Sarcasm aside, your Mom at home is impossible remark is a myth. My family does it on low six-figures, but I know families that do it with Dad earning anywhere between 75k and 600k. Just scale your lifestyle, prioritize the important things first.

Np here but your assertion that the mom needs to be a stay at home to avoid a son becoming an uncle is pure bull shite.

You and your project 2025 sick male fantasy can step right off. Working moms don’t cause idiocy or hateful behavior. Your vile views of women as less than will certainly cause a son to become an incel.

[Anonymous]

All you need to do is have your kid go to a college that's 60%+ women. He will get laid non-stop. --- meaning he won't be involuntarily celibate.

Case closed.

[Anonymous]

The entire framing of this debate is bizarre. It is not a character flaw for a man or a woman to be single. Nobody needs to have a partner to complete them. If you don't have a partner, you are better off not running around sleeping with random people exposing yourself to STDs or risk of pregnancy, rape, etc. anyways.

I am happy to be married but the whole concept is weird. Sure it would be better if these guys spent more time lifting weights and reading books than playing video games, but there is nothing wrong with not having a girlfriend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boys need
A mom at home.
Almost zero screen time.
Male and female friends, in real life.
A good education, either at home or in a private school.
Lots of fresh air every day.

If you're not doing that, you're gonna have a bad time. Bottom line.

I found the right wing incel. Be for real. Mom at home isn't happening in this economy. Public schools have better educated teachers than private schools that require minimal education and training.

I want responses from real people who live in the real world.

Honestly I can buy the “not in this economy” to an extent for moms who are *just* starting a family.
But for ones who have been moms for the last 10+ years…nope.
“The economy” isn’t the barrier to moms staying home.
It’s the societal myth that is perpetuating the idea that SAHMs will be bored or boring…and the expectation that a family of four needs a 4,500+ square foot home, needs to drive luxury vehicles that are kept for no more than 4 years, and needs to vacation overseas at least dr once every few years. People are living waaaaay above the standard of living that one income can afford. And they are choosing that over prioritizing the health and wellness of their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The entire framing of this debate is bizarre. It is not a character flaw for a man or a woman to be single. Nobody needs to have a partner to complete them. If you don't have a partner, you are better off not running around sleeping with random people exposing yourself to STDs or risk of pregnancy, rape, etc. anyways.

I am happy to be married but the whole concept is weird. Sure it would be better if these guys spent more time lifting weights and reading books than playing video games, but there is nothing wrong with not having a girlfriend.

Society says otherwise. Boys get judged if they can’t attract a girl. A common insult is to call someone a virgin.

Boys have a need to feel wanted and respected by the opposite sex. In addition, these same boys usually don’t have status and have been outcasts most of their lives. It takes a strong mind to ignore it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a problem that the entire discussion in this thread is premised on an assumption that boys are almost inherently at risk of going off the rails and becoming bad. That assumption, which unfortunately has becoming deeply rooted in culture and especially in schools due to liberal political preferences, is the key driver for the problem you are worried about. Right now, girls are boosted and treated like the future at every turn, even in implausible situations. Look at the Super Bowl ads for one example, where, among other things, there was an ad where a minority female implausibly bested the entire men's football team (who were portrayed as hateful ogres throughout). Until you all learn to respect and value boys, expect bad results. Toxic femininity is real and a problem.

Have you ever met a kid? Boys are (usually) confident to the point they need to learn humility, compassion and empathy. They need to be taught a lot emotional skills in order to not end up undateable in todays modern world where women will chose to stay single rather than marry them. That’s why we’re ending up with these incels.

Girls, on the other hand, (usually) develop the emotional skills early, independently and successfully. Where they need guidance is building skills like dealing with conflict and risk taking. Skills boys seems to develop more naturally.

That’s not toxic femininity. That’s basic child development.

I have boys, and their confidence that they outwardly project is just bravado. They are deeply insecure, as are their friends. I don’t think tearing down girls is the answer. But, I do see tons of initiatives at least at the elementary level to empower girls and none to empower boys. Even our school gym has a big sign saying “girls rule!” with pictures of professional female athletes. Which is awesome. But they have nothing for boys that is similar. They have a girls coding club and a girls on the run club. Boys aren’t allowed to join either club unless they identify as nonbinary. Even my son’s Boy Scout troop has girls in it. I may get flamed but boys need spaces where they’re safe to be boys, with only other boys, and feel empowered and have strong same gender role models. Just like girls do. As it is right now it seems like girls are allowed into any space that was previously just for boys, but boys are not allowed into any of the spaces just for girls. Until we start celebrating boys for who they are and what amazing things boys can do, they’ll continue to flounder without a strong sense of identity, and that’s where the Joe Rogan types snatch them up and give them an identity- a terrible one. We need to catch them earlier and give them a better one, but as a society, the general message is “boys are bad”.

I get that, but... do you not feel that the whole world constantly celebrates men and their achievements? Don't boys see empowerment and role models every time they turn on the TV/ pass a billboard/ watch the news? The Williams and the Rapinoes and the Collins are exceptions. We only know them because they're so exceptional. The world is awash with men being celebrated, such that when a woman finally reaches the top, she's an abberation to be pointed out.

To a 7yo? No I don't think it feels like the whole world "constantly celebrates men." You are thinking of history, statistics, CEOs etc - that's not really what younger kids are necessarily awash in, unless they are spending a lot of time watching TV or devices.

NP

But why do you think JK Rowling made her main character a boy? Because then the books would appeal to both boys and girls. If the main character was a girl the story could be exactly the same but only girls would read it.

Boys get plenty of passive reinforcement that they are the default sex.

Related to your book comment - there has been a large “outcry” recently from men that there are too many books from/about women. They actively refuse to read books with women as the main character. Girls and women grow up reading books with male protagonists basically from birth, but you want a boy to read something about a girl? Outrage!
I hadn’t even thought of this until your comment, thank you for adding it.

I believe the prevailing trend in schools is to largely disallow or discourage books authored by cisgender white males.

Is it to remove books by cis white men? Or to add more books by others? Are they removing Shel Silverstein and Maurice Sendak and Mo Willems?

I think it’s an extension of the educational effort to center other voices, and to create space or highlight authors of color, womyn authors, and LGTBQIA+ literary works.

Right. But is that exclusionary to white cis men? Or simply a balancing of the voices available? It feels like men are mad at no longer being the default voice in every space, or at the potential for having to compete on a bigger field. And there's this refusal to recognize that not being given automatic preference is not the same as being excluded.

I read a fair amount of science fiction, historically utterly dominated by men, and when women authors started getting the big awards, some men lost. their. minds. It was no longer a boys-only space. They had to compete with some amazing authors who might never have entered the space 50 years ago, or gotten an agent/ publisher if they had tried. "Because no one will buy sci fi by women. Sorry, it's just the market." And men just couldn't handle the increased competition. They wanted to keep the "no girls allowed" sign on the clubhouse door.

Your theories sound good and appear reasonable. But that’s not the reality of what’s happening in the example of the schoolbook-list , linked above.

The school did not simply “balance” reading by adding a few BIPOC/womyn/LGTBQIA+ authored or themes.

No. They virtually excluded all cisgender white male themes and most authors. It took quite some digging to locate the list discussed in the dcum link, but this appears to be the list on page 3; see for yourself:

https://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Cooper-English-7-AAP-2023.pdf

What rwnj bs. The link you posted is utter garbage. That is not a reasonable source of information.

Bad parenting creates incels. The kids are raised in families where the male figures don't respect women. Even the girls in such families will pick up sexist views of women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire framing of this debate is bizarre. It is not a character flaw for a man or a woman to be single. Nobody needs to have a partner to complete them. If you don't have a partner, you are better off not running around sleeping with random people exposing yourself to STDs or risk of pregnancy, rape, etc. anyways.

I am happy to be married but the whole concept is weird. Sure it would be better if these guys spent more time lifting weights and reading books than playing video games, but there is nothing wrong with not having a girlfriend.

Society says otherwise. Boys get judged if they can’t attract a girl. A common insult is to call someone a virgin.

Boys have a need to feel wanted and respected by the opposite sex. In addition, these same boys usually don’t have status and have been outcasts most of their lives. It takes a strong mind to ignore it all.

That doesn't breed incels. I am an advocate for children with disabilities and it is not uncommon for these boys to be just as you described and I have yet to meet an incel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire framing of this debate is bizarre. It is not a character flaw for a man or a woman to be single. Nobody needs to have a partner to complete them. If you don't have a partner, you are better off not running around sleeping with random people exposing yourself to STDs or risk of pregnancy, rape, etc. anyways.

I am happy to be married but the whole concept is weird. Sure it would be better if these guys spent more time lifting weights and reading books than playing video games, but there is nothing wrong with not having a girlfriend.

Society says otherwise. Boys get judged if they can’t attract a girl. A common insult is to call someone a virgin.

Boys have a need to feel wanted and respected by the opposite sex. In addition, these same boys usually don’t have status and have been outcasts most of their lives. It takes a strong mind to ignore it all.

That doesn't breed incels. I am an advocate for children with disabilities and it is not uncommon for these boys to be just as you described and I have yet to meet an incel.

How often are girls nasty towards boys with physical disabilities? Handicapped boys often have involved caretakers whereas incels often are more isolated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a 13 year old DS who I love dearly. I worry all the time about the world he is growing up in. We keep close tabs on friends and online activity but I really worry that he is going to be influenced by terrible outside sources one way or the other. I can't be everywhere and he needs to grow up with some freedom and self autonomy. But I worry.

Parents who had boys who became incels or failed to launch. Were there signs that you missed? Were you able to intervene? Did they come out of it and change? What would you do differently?

My understanding is that incel means involuntary celibate. He is only 13. Teach him to respect women.. No mean No. Good manners. To be kind and generous. Helpful.

[Anonymous]

Raise him to be the kind of man women want and he won't be involuntarily celibate as he will pair off early and lock in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have one family friend who has a son who became a bit of an incel. Or at least I think what OP is talking about. His parents were VERY controlling. He grew up sheltered (wasn't allowed to ride the bus not only to school but also to high school sports games because mom didn't want him hearing boy talk). She was proud of how naive she kept him. Well, he went off to college and went a bit crazy with his freedom, but he didn't have the social skills to match with the freedom he wanted. He turned bitter and angry and when I first saw him his summer after freshman year (we are only 5 years apart) , it was a little scary how angry he was at everyone (especially women) for how his life was going. There was NO self accountability. I know that goes beyond incel but....yikes. I don't know what has happened to him since. There was an incident the following year and my family and most people that I'm still in contact with from that part of my life are no longer in contact with them.

This is actually exactly what an incel is! And I’m so fascinated by your take! I found this thread researching the family dynamics of boys who became incels and I’m having a tough time finding a strong common thread, although it does seem that I’m hearing more about these boys being from strict homes where their own autonomy was not valued or respected and their parent simply refused to talk to them about boundaries and consent, than not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boys need
A mom at home.
Almost zero screen time.
Male and female friends, in real life.
A good education, either at home or in a private school.
Lots of fresh air every day.

If you're not doing that, you're gonna have a bad time. Bottom line.

This is a list of meaningless trends that some seem to think are the solution to all of our problems.

Fresh air is not some kind of miracle drug. Those hate groups spend plenty of time outdoors in the doors.

Males and females use the internet. Mostly boys play video games. They have no secret power.
A home education is isolating and a bad idea. A private school doesn’t have all the resources some kids might need.

Kids needs friends. It doesn’t matter what sex they are. The kids who have difficulty with this will need a lot of support. This is an at risk problem unless parents step in and make sure he’s not alone all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boys need
A mom at home.
Almost zero screen time.
Male and female friends, in real life.
A good education, either at home or in a private school.
Lots of fresh air every day.

If you're not doing that, you're gonna have a bad time. Bottom line.

Psychologist here and this is not it.