Stay at home mom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Yes and my husband and many men I know take
Ownership of the conception and planning of may things that are required in a family.

I've texted about day off play dates with plenty of dads. We have a group chat with the moms and dads on it.

Same. Currently scheduling plans for this long weekend. I'd say in over half the relationships it's the dads who are the ones responding/planning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Correct

Or worse, someone else has to tell them how, what, when, how for every task, each time.

So why be married to such a loser?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

I have no idea - I would have never gotten married or had kids with my husband if the deal hadn't been that we would both be 50% caretakers of the kids. Even at the beginning we did bottle feeding so he could participate. No way would I work the same amount of hours and make the same amount of money only to do more around the house or with the kids. Why anyone signs up for that deal is beyond me.

My spouse and I also split things evenly. I did take on more in the beginning because I chose to breastfeed but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. We have two boys so, for instance, he does all swim practices so we don't have to wait in line for the family changing rooms.

I'm happy with our setup, neither of us has to work crazy hours and we both get to be involved parents.

who found the swim lessons options and who chose and booked the one you're in? just curious.

Curious too. I don’t even care if household chores are split 50/50 or not. The things that grind me down are the finding all the doctors; setting up all the appointments at appropriate times that work for everyone; keeping up with when the kids need new shoes, lunchboxes, backpacks, haircuts, underwear, etc; taking the pulse on everyone’s emotions before/during/after any changes and adjusting things to appropriately support the kids; making sure the house is stocked in food, cleaning supplies, paper products; planning and buying everything for all birthday parties plus making the guest list and sending invites; meal planning around 4 people’s preferences and needs; ensuring the kids are doing the appropriate amount of music or sports and researching all those and signups and uniform and equipment purchases and maintenance; fostering emotional intimacy with and support for my kids and learning about their friends and who they are becoming and checking in regularly about any issues; keeping informed on their academics and reading the 1,000s of emails from schools lest we miss some opportunities that I also must sign them up for and pay for; getting the house ready for any and all entertaining or guests; teaching my kids how to develop good habits in eating, sleep, studying, friendships; and I could think of a zillion more things.

I would happily do all laundry, cleaning, and cooking if the rest were shared 50/50. But men in general completely check out of thinking about anyone but themselves when they look at the big picture. My DH can’t be bothered to give AF about my emotional wellbeing or goals and dreams, why would he do that for his kids?

I think what you're missing is that a 50/50 split doesn't mean you do trash and I do laundry, you do dogs and I do Christmas shopping. It's that this week there are things that will take 20 hours to do, whether those things are physical labor (i.e. mowing the lawn) or mental labor (i.e. researching in-network PT options). We will each do 10 hours of work to get all the things done. And it's not a weekly thing, some weeks one of us is doing more than the other and vice versa, but it's fine because we know the other isn't looking to shirk responsibility. We're a team.

The operative question is whether both partners have the proverbial list/ticker tape going through their minds about what needs to be done, or whether only one partner maintains that ongoing mental list and tasks the other partner with handling certain items from it.

The very maintenance of the ongoing list and initiating whatever it is that is necessary to get things done is work that most men do not do.

It just seems so inefficient to have two people running two ticker tapes about all the same things at the same time. Having two different “lists” doesn’t make things inequitable. Surely a division of labor, clear ownership, and delegation of tasks on each list as required makes the most sense.

If your partner has to tell you what to do, then you are not really a partner.

It's not inefficient to have multiple people running ticker tapes about what needs to be done. The mental lists do not need to overlap and indeed should probably not overlap. But an adult in a partnership who is responsible for a family needs to have their own list of responsibilities, with ownership from conception.

We have some overlap and inefficiencies but they're easily dealt with. As an example, we both get emails from the school about things. Whoever sees it first will deal with it and let the other person know. I'm not willing to take on 100% of that work because it can be a lot with different kids in different classes so yes our system is less efficient than if only one of us did it but I don't think only one of us should know what's going on at school, we should both know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Yes and my husband and many men I know take
Ownership of the conception and planning of may things that are required in a family.

That's great. According to studies however, most men do not do this.

Most of the men I know do this. The point is PICK BETTER MEN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

I have no idea - I would have never gotten married or had kids with my husband if the deal hadn't been that we would both be 50% caretakers of the kids. Even at the beginning we did bottle feeding so he could participate. No way would I work the same amount of hours and make the same amount of money only to do more around the house or with the kids. Why anyone signs up for that deal is beyond me.

My spouse and I also split things evenly. I did take on more in the beginning because I chose to breastfeed but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. We have two boys so, for instance, he does all swim practices so we don't have to wait in line for the family changing rooms.

I'm happy with our setup, neither of us has to work crazy hours and we both get to be involved parents.

who found the swim lessons options and who chose and booked the one you're in? just curious.

Curious too. I don’t even care if household chores are split 50/50 or not. The things that grind me down are the finding all the doctors; setting up all the appointments at appropriate times that work for everyone; keeping up with when the kids need new shoes, lunchboxes, backpacks, haircuts, underwear, etc; taking the pulse on everyone’s emotions before/during/after any changes and adjusting things to appropriately support the kids; making sure the house is stocked in food, cleaning supplies, paper products; planning and buying everything for all birthday parties plus making the guest list and sending invites; meal planning around 4 people’s preferences and needs; ensuring the kids are doing the appropriate amount of music or sports and researching all those and signups and uniform and equipment purchases and maintenance; fostering emotional intimacy with and support for my kids and learning about their friends and who they are becoming and checking in regularly about any issues; keeping informed on their academics and reading the 1,000s of emails from schools lest we miss some opportunities that I also must sign them up for and pay for; getting the house ready for any and all entertaining or guests; teaching my kids how to develop good habits in eating, sleep, studying, friendships; and I could think of a zillion more things.

I would happily do all laundry, cleaning, and cooking if the rest were shared 50/50. But men in general completely check out of thinking about anyone but themselves when they look at the big picture. My DH can’t be bothered to give AF about my emotional wellbeing or goals and dreams, why would he do that for his kids?

I think what you're missing is that a 50/50 split doesn't mean you do trash and I do laundry, you do dogs and I do Christmas shopping. It's that this week there are things that will take 20 hours to do, whether those things are physical labor (i.e. mowing the lawn) or mental labor (i.e. researching in-network PT options). We will each do 10 hours of work to get all the things done. And it's not a weekly thing, some weeks one of us is doing more than the other and vice versa, but it's fine because we know the other isn't looking to shirk responsibility. We're a team.

The operative question is whether both partners have the proverbial list/ticker tape going through their minds about what needs to be done, or whether only one partner maintains that ongoing mental list and tasks the other partner with handling certain items from it.

The very maintenance of the ongoing list and initiating whatever it is that is necessary to get things done is work that most men do not do.

It just seems so inefficient to have two people running two ticker tapes about all the same things at the same time. Having two different “lists” doesn’t make things inequitable. Surely a division of labor, clear ownership, and delegation of tasks on each list as required makes the most sense.

If your partner has to tell you what to do, then you are not really a partner.

It's not inefficient to have multiple people running ticker tapes about what needs to be done. The mental lists do not need to overlap and indeed should probably not overlap. But an adult in a partnership who is responsible for a family needs to have their own list of responsibilities, with ownership from conception.

???

If DH asks me to not water the garden on Tuesday because he’s fertilizing the lawn. I just say OK and don’t water that day. I don’t keep track of his weird fertilize the lawn schedule, but I’m grateful that he has one and I cooperate with him on his plan. That’s being a partner too!

Okay. But he’s in charge of the lawn, and you are occasionally helping out. You aren’t doing half.

So? No one said that every single task should be handled half by each partner. That is very inefficient. The point is that some people actually communicate with their partners. Shocking, I know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

I have no idea - I would have never gotten married or had kids with my husband if the deal hadn't been that we would both be 50% caretakers of the kids. Even at the beginning we did bottle feeding so he could participate. No way would I work the same amount of hours and make the same amount of money only to do more around the house or with the kids. Why anyone signs up for that deal is beyond me.

My spouse and I also split things evenly. I did take on more in the beginning because I chose to breastfeed but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. We have two boys so, for instance, he does all swim practices so we don't have to wait in line for the family changing rooms.

I'm happy with our setup, neither of us has to work crazy hours and we both get to be involved parents.

who found the swim lessons options and who chose and booked the one you're in? just curious.

Curious too. I don’t even care if household chores are split 50/50 or not. The things that grind me down are the finding all the doctors; setting up all the appointments at appropriate times that work for everyone; keeping up with when the kids need new shoes, lunchboxes, backpacks, haircuts, underwear, etc; taking the pulse on everyone’s emotions before/during/after any changes and adjusting things to appropriately support the kids; making sure the house is stocked in food, cleaning supplies, paper products; planning and buying everything for all birthday parties plus making the guest list and sending invites; meal planning around 4 people’s preferences and needs; ensuring the kids are doing the appropriate amount of music or sports and researching all those and signups and uniform and equipment purchases and maintenance; fostering emotional intimacy with and support for my kids and learning about their friends and who they are becoming and checking in regularly about any issues; keeping informed on their academics and reading the 1,000s of emails from schools lest we miss some opportunities that I also must sign them up for and pay for; getting the house ready for any and all entertaining or guests; teaching my kids how to develop good habits in eating, sleep, studying, friendships; and I could think of a zillion more things.

I would happily do all laundry, cleaning, and cooking if the rest were shared 50/50. But men in general completely check out of thinking about anyone but themselves when they look at the big picture. My DH can’t be bothered to give AF about my emotional wellbeing or goals and dreams, why would he do that for his kids?

I think what you're missing is that a 50/50 split doesn't mean you do trash and I do laundry, you do dogs and I do Christmas shopping. It's that this week there are things that will take 20 hours to do, whether those things are physical labor (i.e. mowing the lawn) or mental labor (i.e. researching in-network PT options). We will each do 10 hours of work to get all the things done. And it's not a weekly thing, some weeks one of us is doing more than the other and vice versa, but it's fine because we know the other isn't looking to shirk responsibility. We're a team.

The operative question is whether both partners have the proverbial list/ticker tape going through their minds about what needs to be done, or whether only one partner maintains that ongoing mental list and tasks the other partner with handling certain items from it.

The very maintenance of the ongoing list and initiating whatever it is that is necessary to get things done is work that most men do not do.

It just seems so inefficient to have two people running two ticker tapes about all the same things at the same time. Having two different “lists” doesn’t make things inequitable. Surely a division of labor, clear ownership, and delegation of tasks on each list as required makes the most sense.

If your partner has to tell you what to do, then you are not really a partner.

It's not inefficient to have multiple people running ticker tapes about what needs to be done. The mental lists do not need to overlap and indeed should probably not overlap. But an adult in a partnership who is responsible for a family needs to have their own list of responsibilities, with ownership from conception.

???

If DH asks me to not water the garden on Tuesday because he’s fertilizing the lawn. I just say OK and don’t water that day. I don’t keep track of his weird fertilize the lawn schedule, but I’m grateful that he has one and I cooperate with him on his plan. That’s being a partner too!

Okay. But he’s in charge of the lawn, and you are occasionally helping out. You aren’t doing half.

Are we expecting 50/50 in EVERYTHING? That certainly is a choice…[to make yourself miserable]

The people who want to argue that all men suck will always pick at this and argue about each of you doing half of everything. It's missing the point but they can't acknowledge that some men are wonderful and equal partners and that some women are actually happily married so they have to pick at whatever you say in order to try and shoot it down. Even the person who said that they know many men who are involved got show down by some "study" that says that most men aren't like that, which also misses the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Yes and my husband and many men I know take
Ownership of the conception and planning of may things that are required in a family.

That's great. According to studies however, most men do not do this.

Most of the men I know do this. The point is PICK BETTER MEN.

Stats do show millennial men are spending way more time with their kids than previous generations.

https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/social-sciences-and-humanities/millennials-and-fatherhood

I'm a millennial and very involved Dads are the norm in my peer group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

I have no idea - I would have never gotten married or had kids with my husband if the deal hadn't been that we would both be 50% caretakers of the kids. Even at the beginning we did bottle feeding so he could participate. No way would I work the same amount of hours and make the same amount of money only to do more around the house or with the kids. Why anyone signs up for that deal is beyond me.

My spouse and I also split things evenly. I did take on more in the beginning because I chose to breastfeed but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. We have two boys so, for instance, he does all swim practices so we don't have to wait in line for the family changing rooms.

I'm happy with our setup, neither of us has to work crazy hours and we both get to be involved parents.

who found the swim lessons options and who chose and booked the one you're in? just curious.

Curious too. I don’t even care if household chores are split 50/50 or not. The things that grind me down are the finding all the doctors; setting up all the appointments at appropriate times that work for everyone; keeping up with when the kids need new shoes, lunchboxes, backpacks, haircuts, underwear, etc; taking the pulse on everyone’s emotions before/during/after any changes and adjusting things to appropriately support the kids; making sure the house is stocked in food, cleaning supplies, paper products; planning and buying everything for all birthday parties plus making the guest list and sending invites; meal planning around 4 people’s preferences and needs; ensuring the kids are doing the appropriate amount of music or sports and researching all those and signups and uniform and equipment purchases and maintenance; fostering emotional intimacy with and support for my kids and learning about their friends and who they are becoming and checking in regularly about any issues; keeping informed on their academics and reading the 1,000s of emails from schools lest we miss some opportunities that I also must sign them up for and pay for; getting the house ready for any and all entertaining or guests; teaching my kids how to develop good habits in eating, sleep, studying, friendships; and I could think of a zillion more things.

I would happily do all laundry, cleaning, and cooking if the rest were shared 50/50. But men in general completely check out of thinking about anyone but themselves when they look at the big picture. My DH can’t be bothered to give AF about my emotional wellbeing or goals and dreams, why would he do that for his kids?

DP. I think a lot of couples butt heads on this stuff because women tend to have higher standards for meals, kid enrichment, cleanliness of home, fostering community ties... all of it.

I cannot be the only woman in the whole world married to a man who has higher standards than I do on all of this AND expects me to do it.

So just...don't? Your husband is an AH if he expects you to do everything. So don't do it. Do what you think needs to be done. He can do the rest. Or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

I have no idea - I would have never gotten married or had kids with my husband if the deal hadn't been that we would both be 50% caretakers of the kids. Even at the beginning we did bottle feeding so he could participate. No way would I work the same amount of hours and make the same amount of money only to do more around the house or with the kids. Why anyone signs up for that deal is beyond me.

My spouse and I also split things evenly. I did take on more in the beginning because I chose to breastfeed but in the grand scheme it's not a big deal. We have two boys so, for instance, he does all swim practices so we don't have to wait in line for the family changing rooms.

I'm happy with our setup, neither of us has to work crazy hours and we both get to be involved parents.

who found the swim lessons options and who chose and booked the one you're in? just curious.

Curious too. I don’t even care if household chores are split 50/50 or not. The things that grind me down are the finding all the doctors; setting up all the appointments at appropriate times that work for everyone; keeping up with when the kids need new shoes, lunchboxes, backpacks, haircuts, underwear, etc; taking the pulse on everyone’s emotions before/during/after any changes and adjusting things to appropriately support the kids; making sure the house is stocked in food, cleaning supplies, paper products; planning and buying everything for all birthday parties plus making the guest list and sending invites; meal planning around 4 people’s preferences and needs; ensuring the kids are doing the appropriate amount of music or sports and researching all those and signups and uniform and equipment purchases and maintenance; fostering emotional intimacy with and support for my kids and learning about their friends and who they are becoming and checking in regularly about any issues; keeping informed on their academics and reading the 1,000s of emails from schools lest we miss some opportunities that I also must sign them up for and pay for; getting the house ready for any and all entertaining or guests; teaching my kids how to develop good habits in eating, sleep, studying, friendships; and I could think of a zillion more things.

I would happily do all laundry, cleaning, and cooking if the rest were shared 50/50. But men in general completely check out of thinking about anyone but themselves when they look at the big picture. My DH can’t be bothered to give AF about my emotional wellbeing or goals and dreams, why would he do that for his kids?

I think what you're missing is that a 50/50 split doesn't mean you do trash and I do laundry, you do dogs and I do Christmas shopping. It's that this week there are things that will take 20 hours to do, whether those things are physical labor (i.e. mowing the lawn) or mental labor (i.e. researching in-network PT options). We will each do 10 hours of work to get all the things done. And it's not a weekly thing, some weeks one of us is doing more than the other and vice versa, but it's fine because we know the other isn't looking to shirk responsibility. We're a team.

The operative question is whether both partners have the proverbial list/ticker tape going through their minds about what needs to be done, or whether only one partner maintains that ongoing mental list and tasks the other partner with handling certain items from it.

The very maintenance of the ongoing list and initiating whatever it is that is necessary to get things done is work that most men do not do.

It just seems so inefficient to have two people running two ticker tapes about all the same things at the same time. Having two different “lists” doesn’t make things inequitable. Surely a division of labor, clear ownership, and delegation of tasks on each list as required makes the most sense.

If your partner has to tell you what to do, then you are not really a partner.

It's not inefficient to have multiple people running ticker tapes about what needs to be done. The mental lists do not need to overlap and indeed should probably not overlap. But an adult in a partnership who is responsible for a family needs to have their own list of responsibilities, with ownership from conception.

???

If DH asks me to not water the garden on Tuesday because he’s fertilizing the lawn. I just say OK and don’t water that day. I don’t keep track of his weird fertilize the lawn schedule, but I’m grateful that he has one and I cooperate with him on his plan. That’s being a partner too!

Okay. But he’s in charge of the lawn, and you are occasionally helping out. You aren’t doing half.

Are we expecting 50/50 in EVERYTHING? That certainly is a choice…[to make yourself miserable]

The answer to all of this is to not have kids. Many young women are choosing this option. They understand.

The answer to this is to have kids with better men. And if you can't find one then don't have kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

DP. My DH certainly delivered his half for years. I watched that carefully in our relationship before we got married because I did not want to wind up like a lot of women wound up. He was a caretaker, he was responsible, he verbalized my value and labor, he initiated tasks and long term planning. Peach of a dad when our kid was born.

It all changed in a matter of months when he hit his late 40s.

It's all well and good to counsel women not to marry a loser. But most of us don't knowingly do so. I never would have married someone who told me I'd be the one carrying the load alone. People change. That's why you need a plan B and a plan C, and absent a strong prenup or independent wealth, most women should never step too far off the career track.

I'm sorry for what you experienced, that sounds awful. However, you aren't the dolt who had a second child because their unhelpful husband demanded it. You had your husband do a 180 on you, and frankly, I don't know what can be done about that other than to have backup plans, like you mentioned. Again, I'm sorry for what happened to you, I can't even imagine.

Thank you for such kind words <3

I have spent probably too long trying to look back and figure out if I missed red flags, but I'm also extremely grateful to my younger self for sticking out some of the hard parts of full-time-careering and full-time-momming. Kids got older, I got more senior and experienced in my field, and when he invited me to quit because he was making so much money? For some reason although I always fantasized about it, I didn't. So, divorce was a terrible experience and very sad for my children, but we adjusted to our new lives and will be okay. I have more time than ever to spend with them, which has been a bright silver lining.

Plan B, Plan C, and be flexible, folks. You never know what it's going to be. An affair, a mental health issue, a sudden accident, a debilitating illness, an industry-wide shift, a recession, a pandemic, a war. Just try to enjoy and be present each day with the time you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I both work, he's doing more of the chores and childcare right now because I'm 8 months pregnant with our second and I've reached the uncomfortable and always tired stage. With our first I handled the vast majority of night wake ups because I chose to breastfeed.

I of course handled all the house stuff when his mom got sick and he was with her for her surgeries and chemo.

It's not a constant bean counting thing, you have to be a team.

+1000

Your point also goes to the OP, which is that you need to be with someone who agrees to work with you on life. Guaranteed you'll be thrown a curveball or two, so the point to OP is that you need to find someone who understands your feelings on something but is also flexible enough to handle changes to that. I would never marry someone who said they would never let their wife work or they would definitely want a SAHM. Too many things could happen that could change that scenario, and being married to someone who has one rigid idea of how things go is a recipe for disaster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:50/50 or men doing an equal share is the new "women can have it all"

Ultimately, when the system breaks down, it's the woman's fault.

Says who? If it's your husband saying that, then you married a dud. If it's "society" saying it then get off social media or find better friends. I've never, not once, had someone blame me if my kids didn't have X when they needed it. It is just as much my husband's responsibility as it is mine (unless it's something we discussed and decided I would do and then I didn't do it).

Stop acting like having a husband who is equally as involved in your life is a pipe dream because it's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Yes and my husband and many men I know take
Ownership of the conception and planning of may things that are required in a family.

That's great. According to studies however, most men do not do this.

Most of the men I know do this. The point is PICK BETTER MEN.

Stats do show millennial men are spending way more time with their kids than previous generations.

https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/social-sciences-and-humanities/millennials-and-fatherhood

I'm a millennial and very involved Dads are the norm in my peer group.

I'm a young Gen X (born 1979) and our friends are all Gen X (either our age or slightly older) but I guess we're also called Xennials so I suppose we could be grouped in that generation. I'll say, however, that my dad (born 1946) was also very involved in our lives growing up. Both he and my mom worked and I knew a lot of my friends' dads because they were also involved. Some of them I knew better than their moms, actually. I don't live in the same area I grew up in but I am surrounded by the same kinds of people I grew up with, so perhaps that has something to do with it. Educated, UMC, mostly dual-income households, both parents have multiple degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

Women on here claim to have husbands doing 50/50. But I’ve never actually seen this in real life. While dads do a lot more than previous generations, it’s still the moms I know throwing birthday parties, handling sick days, planning the family vacations etc. Even when the DW is the higher earner. Almost all studies support this.

It’s disingenuous to act as though men doing 50% really is the norm.

Ok so what's your suggestion? That women just settle for men who don't do their share?

I don't know why you're calling me (or any of the other PPs) liars, but my husband does do 50%, actually maybe more than that if I'm being generous. One of our kids is in PT (they're in middle school now so sick days are a thing of the past) and he has been the one to take her to the last 8 appointments. I have only done 1. I know other men who do at least half. One of our best friends works, his wife does only very part-time, he also drives the kid more, cleans the house, and plans everything. His wife is subject to migraines and he is a Type A who does well with lots of tasks.

If it's not the norm for men to do half (and I never said it was the norm, by the way), then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But telling women to just suck it up and marry these losers doesn't seem like a good answer to me. It's certainly not what I'm advising my own daughters (I don't have sons).

Most men I know take kids to appointments. The problem is you have to manage the appointments. They won’t make annual appointments or think to take the kid to the dentist. They don’t submit forms to schools. You’re not mentioning the planning and invisible labor. Your spouse is doing the visible stuff like most men.

+1

The real work lies in the conception and planning. The execution of tasks is the least of it.

Yes and my husband and many men I know take
Ownership of the conception and planning of may things that are required in a family.

That's great. According to studies however, most men do not do this.

Most of the men I know do this. The point is PICK BETTER MEN.

Like I said. It's always the women's fault.
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Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the standard is now that you work FT and handle all logistics, planning etc.

I don’t recommend having kids unless you go in with eyes wide open about this.

Even if your husband is supportive of you staying home, it’s a terrible move because it places you in a precarious position.

^^This. You need to realize, OP, that you are competing with women who will provide to a man all the benefits of SAHM (bear the mental load, handle all the newborn stuff while healing from a major medical event, clean, caretake, be first line of defense when kid is sick) and also be pulling in a few hundred Ks of salary. How do you market yourself to be more attractive than that?

Are women really competing to marry men like this? Why would anyone put up with this if they were capable of pulling in a few hundred KS of salary? At that point it makes absolute sense to me to save and plan for single parenthood ( as a PP suggested) while remaining open to finding the right partner.

It’s not that they are knowingly competing for it. The engrained societal expectation is that most women work and handle everything or most things related to kids and the home. If you’re fortunate you’ll have a DH who takes on some tasks but he will do 30-40% of it max and you’ll need to assign him responsibilities. All the mental load will fall on you. Most young women in the marriage market aren’t aware of this. Ignorance is bliss until you’re a FT mom with young kids or you’re earning $0 because you had kids.

A few years ago I posted on here that I didn’t see how I could keep working my high earning/demanding job and have the second child my husband demanded. I shared my husband earns around $500k which could have influenced the responses attacking me. The consensus was that I’m unreasonable and my husband should/will leave me if I insist on quitting my job to have the second child. Some comments went as far to say my DH should find someone else to replace me and gladly work while having two young kids.

The sad reality is that most women don’t have the income to properly support a family on their own. Some do, but most do not. A man is still a ticket to more income and income to support the kids.

Stop telling people this because it makes them think that they have no choice but to marry losers like this. It just isn't true that there aren't any good men out there.

Also, if your husband is DEMANDING that you have a second child, your husband is an AH, I don't know what else to tell you. But guess what? Some of us aren't married to men who only do the bare minimum or who need to be assigned responsibilities and we sure as hell aren't married to men who would demand that we have another child.

Young women reading this - if you want to marry a man like OP who will agree that you should stay at home, that is fine, just be sure that you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. And if you want to marry a man who will agree to do his half of childcare and house management because you both work, that is also fine, just be sure you find one who is on board with that, because not all men are. But don't settle and marry some loser who will demand that you have kids and then not help with them. It would be better to be single and childless than to be married to someone like that. Bottom line - know what you want, make it clear, and be picky. This is the rest of your life and your children's lives that you are signing up for. It should not be a decision to be taken lightly.

DP. My DH certainly delivered his half for years. I watched that carefully in our relationship before we got married because I did not want to wind up like a lot of women wound up. He was a caretaker, he was responsible, he verbalized my value and labor, he initiated tasks and long term planning. Peach of a dad when our kid was born.

It all changed in a matter of months when he hit his late 40s.

It's all well and good to counsel women not to marry a loser. But most of us don't knowingly do so. I never would have married someone who told me I'd be the one carrying the load alone. People change. That's why you need a plan B and a plan C, and absent a strong prenup or independent wealth, most women should never step too far off the career track.

I'm sorry for what you experienced, that sounds awful. However, you aren't the dolt who had a second child because their unhelpful husband demanded it. You had your husband do a 180 on you, and frankly, I don't know what can be done about that other than to have backup plans, like you mentioned. Again, I'm sorry for what happened to you, I can't even imagine.

Thank you for such kind words <3

I have spent probably too long trying to look back and figure out if I missed red flags, but I'm also extremely grateful to my younger self for sticking out some of the hard parts of full-time-careering and full-time-momming. Kids got older, I got more senior and experienced in my field, and when he invited me to quit because he was making so much money? For some reason although I always fantasized about it, I didn't. So, divorce was a terrible experience and very sad for my children, but we adjusted to our new lives and will be okay. I have more time than ever to spend with them, which has been a bright silver lining.

Plan B, Plan C, and be flexible, folks. You never know what it's going to be. An affair, a mental health issue, a sudden accident, a debilitating illness, an industry-wide shift, a recession, a pandemic, a war. Just try to enjoy and be present each day with the time you have.

Some of these would be easier to handle, I'd imagine. It's one thing if your husband is hit by a drunk driver and can no longer work. It's another thing if he becomes a different person, like yours did. It seems to me the former would be much harder to grapple with than the latter. Your kids are lucky to have you.