Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?
I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.
So answer my question.
Yes you are.
A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.
7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.
You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.
This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.
As I see it, you can do one of three things:
1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.
2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.
3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.
Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?
The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.
Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.
So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?
Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?
So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?
Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.
I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.
Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.
Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.
. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party
Egypt plays a big role in all of this. They had a nasty habit of starting wars with Israel until 1978.
Odd. I remember Israel had a nasty habit of stealing land and committing genocide. Could that have been a prelude?
Plus when Israel is done killing Palestinians, they’ll start they’d land grab from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. We all know that it won’t stop here
Ooh I know where you got that last part from!
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
What kind or moron are you? Israel occupied southern Lebanon for the entirety of the civil war, which spawned Hezbollah. They also stole Golan and Sinai. They are regularly siphoning Jordan’s fresh water supply.
This is knowledge of current events which you lack
Anonymous wrote:The videos are starting to come out from Gaza tonight and it is beyond horiffic. Israel will never come back from their complete and utter atrocities.
Huh? Israel is at war with Hamas. It has provided evacuation notices so people can move south. The IDF is regarded as one of the most humane militaries there is.
The IDF is viewed by nobody as humane. Full stop. You’re living on another planet, friend.
Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.
I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.
Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.
Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.
. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party
Egypt plays a big role in all of this. They had a nasty habit of starting wars with Israel until 1978.
Odd. I remember Israel had a nasty habit of stealing land and committing genocide. Could that have been a prelude?
Plus when Israel is done killing Palestinians, they’ll start they’d land grab from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. We all know that it won’t stop here
Ooh I know where you got that last part from!
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
What kind or moron are you? Israel occupied southern Lebanon for the entirety of the civil war, which spawned Hezbollah. They also stole Golan and Sinai. They are regularly siphoning Jordan’s fresh water supply.
This is knowledge of current events which you lack
You don’t get to cite events from long ago to excuse why you’re spewing Hamas propaganda about what Israel’s intentions are in 2023.
Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.
I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.
Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.
Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.
. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party
Jewish people were also native to the land. Don't forget that. About 1/3 of the population of Mandatory Palestine was Jewish, and they were more than willing to split it. It was the Arab League that refused and declared war.
As for the Gaza strip, it originally belonged to Egypt. Israel would love it if they could take it back. They want nothing to do with Gaza. They don't want the land. They just want Hamas to stop.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?
I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.
So answer my question.
Yes you are.
A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.
7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.
You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.
This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.
As I see it, you can do one of three things:
1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.
2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.
3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.
Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?
The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.
Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.
So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?
Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?
So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?
I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.
So answer my question.
Yes you are.
A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.
7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.
You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.
This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.
As I see it, you can do one of three things:
1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.
2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.
3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.
Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?
The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.
Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.
So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?
Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?
So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?
Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.
I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.
Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.
Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.
. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party
Jewish people were also native to the land. Don't forget that. About 1/3 of the population of Mandatory Palestine was Jewish, and they were more than willing to split it. It was the Arab League that refused and declared war.
As for the Gaza strip, it originally belonged to Egypt. Israel would love it if they could take it back. They want nothing to do with Gaza. They don't want the land. They just want Hamas to stop.
Lol. How sweet of them. They were willing to split it with the 750,000 Palestinians that they murdered and forcibly removed in the Nakba? That’s a funny way to share
Israelis had no good intentions. Their plan was always to expel those who would go and kill the rest.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?
I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.
So answer my question.
Yes you are.
A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.
7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.
You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.
This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.
As I see it, you can do one of three things:
1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.
2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.
3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.
Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?
The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.
Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.
So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?
Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?
So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?
I like Naftali Bennett’s plan. Look it up.
I only see a paywalled op ed. What is it?
How can you not have a NYTimes subscription?
I have a wapo subscription. I read the nytimes through my work computer.
Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.
I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.
Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.
Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.
. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party
Jewish people were also native to the land. Don't forget that. About 1/3 of the population of Mandatory Palestine was Jewish, and they were more than willing to split it. It was the Arab League that refused and declared war.
As for the Gaza strip, it originally belonged to Egypt. Israel would love it if they could take it back. They want nothing to do with Gaza. They don't want the land. They just want Hamas to stop.
Lol. How sweet of them. They were willing to split it with the 750,000 Palestinians that they murdered and forcibly removed in the Nakba? That’s a funny way to share
Israelis had no good intentions. Their plan was always to expel those who would go and kill the rest.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
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