Gaza War, Part 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The videos are starting to come out from Gaza tonight and it is beyond horiffic. Israel will never come back from their complete and utter atrocities.

Huh? Israel is at war with Hamas. It has provided evacuation notices so people can move south. The IDF is regarded as one of the most humane militaries there is.

The IDF is viewed by nobody as humane. Full stop. You’re living on another planet, friend.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?

I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.

So answer my question.

Yes you are.

A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.

7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/israel-population/
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

NOT ALL ISRAELIS ARE JEWS

You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.

This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.

As I see it, you can do one of three things:

1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.

2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.

3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.

Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?

The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.

Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.

So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?

Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.

I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.

I have said that many times.

I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.

I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.

People have said “I don’t care.”

So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.

You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.

I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.

Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.

Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.

. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party

Egypt also has refugees from Syria, refugees from Sudan, plus migrants from the rest of Africa.

Egypt takes in a lot of dispossessed people.

Oh, and did I mention they get all their freshwater from one itty bitty river that looks smaller than the Potomac with 2 massive damns upstream already?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.

I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.

Definitely forever gone. Even within my own circles- everyone has gone all in for Palestinian liberation and and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. All one needs to do is look at the protests around the world- and even the protests within this country over the past few weeks have been massive. Protesters took over Grand Central Station tonight. I’m sorry boomers, but the narrative has been changing for a while and it’s changing rapidly.

Idk. I tend to think that the US is more made up of the annoyed New Yorkers in the video linked in the other thread. Patience for entitled whiny college kids who take over Grand Central is not high.

I LOVE that guy. That’s the NYC I know.

It’s also consistent with the take of a lot of Americans. Putting aside the entitled rich kids awkwardly wearing keffiyehs, most Americans aren’t in favor of the group that favors tearing the babies out of pregnant mothers and executing them.

Most Americans won’t choose muslins over jews. That is the true fact and we all know it, even if no one want to say out loud.


Muslins are too “otherly” and to compound the problem, they had their experience with 9/11, ISIS, Hezbollah, Jihad, etc.

Most Americans are too stupid to differentiate between a normal, regular person of Muslim faith and the terrorists within that faith.

To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least. Unless we count the Christians who go on to do madd shootings.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

Try to understand. I am not Palestinian. Or even Arabic. Or Muslim. But when I see the dead and injured children in Gaza, I see my son. You can call that naive or ignorant if you like. I fully get that Hamas are monsters and have chosen to inflict unspeakable damage on Israelis. Doesn’t change the fact that Israel’s response is hurting innocents too. And I don’t find the innocent Israeli’s killed by Hamas to be worth more than the children killed by Israel.

But if you see a dead Israeli, do you see your son?

I do not want to see Israeli children harmed. Or their mothers raped. Or their grandmothers taken hostage. All of this has clearly happened.

But to your question above. When I see pictures of young Palestinian boys, they literally look like my son (we are brown skinned with origins from a different part of the globe). That has an emotional response which is real.

You know, when I see dead kids of any race, I have a strong emotional response. It’s weird and somewhat sociopathic that you don’t.

But see, it’s only if she thinks they look like her kid.

Honestly? I didn’t know whether I should respond to that question but I decided to do so. Of course I (like hopefully all people) respond to children of all races being hurt or killed. I am not going to lie - there is something about those Palestinian children who just have such a rough lot in life that has captured me. Since we have been talking about how the American population is becoming slightly less reflexively pro Israel/anti Palestine, I thought I would share my reaction. I think mainstream Americans are more able today to see the humanity in Palestinians than they have before. Maybe because of social media and other sources of news?

If “seeing the humanity” means devaluing the lives of Jewish children like you’ve been doing in this thread, I want nothing to do with that version of humanity.

I’m not Jewish, just horrified by your posts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:But I think people are slowly becoming more aware of what they’re accidentally signing up for, now that Hamas has escalated this situation. Young people are having second thoughts. I think Hamas seriously miscalculated on 10/7. Burned a lot of sympathy.

I think it’s very much the opposite. I think the goodwill many had unquestioningly for Israel is forever gone.

Definitely forever gone. Even within my own circles- everyone has gone all in for Palestinian liberation and and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. All one needs to do is look at the protests around the world- and even the protests within this country over the past few weeks have been massive. Protesters took over Grand Central Station tonight. I’m sorry boomers, but the narrative has been changing for a while and it’s changing rapidly.

Idk. I tend to think that the US is more made up of the annoyed New Yorkers in the video linked in the other thread. Patience for entitled whiny college kids who take over Grand Central is not high.

I LOVE that guy. That’s the NYC I know.

It’s also consistent with the take of a lot of Americans. Putting aside the entitled rich kids awkwardly wearing keffiyehs, most Americans aren’t in favor of the group that favors tearing the babies out of pregnant mothers and executing them.

Most Americans won’t choose muslins over jews. That is the true fact and we all know it, even if no one want to say out loud.


Muslins are too “otherly” and to compound the problem, they had their experience with 9/11, ISIS, Hezbollah, Jihad, etc.

Most Americans are too stupid to differentiate between a normal, regular person of Muslim faith and the terrorists within that faith.

To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least. Unless we count the Christians who go on to do madd shootings.

Awkward.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.

I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.

I have said that many times.

I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.

I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.

People have said “I don’t care.”

So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.

You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either

And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.

I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.

I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.

I have said that many times.

I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.

I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.

People have said “I don’t care.”

So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.

You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either

And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.

I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.

Bassem Eid is another.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.

I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.

Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.

Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.

. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party

Egypt plays a big role in all of this. They had a nasty habit of starting wars with Israel until 1978.

Odd. I remember Israel had a nasty habit of stealing land and committing genocide. Could that have been a prelude?

Plus when Israel is done killing Palestinians, they’ll start they’d land grab from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. We all know that it won’t stop here

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The videos are starting to come out from Gaza tonight and it is beyond horiffic. Israel will never come back from their complete and utter atrocities.

Huh? Israel is at war with Hamas. It has provided evacuation notices so people can move south. The IDF is regarded as one of the most humane militaries there is.

Are you not aware of the total bombardment happening RIGHT NOW. It’s an extreme escalation of bombings and a ground assault. the internet has been cut - they are killing EVERYONE.

Israel is showing what the plan has been all along. It’s disgusting and I am sick my tax dollars are paying for it.

My boomer mom just called me in tears. It’s extinction of Palestinians.

I don’t believe you that your mom called you in tears. She probably doesn’t even know where Palestine is.

You don’t have to believe me but it’s true: she’s spent the last week reading up on the last 75 years and cannot believe the spin Americans have been fed. Times are changing.

She learned all of it in a week? OMG GOOD FOR HER.

Proves to me she didn’t know crap before that and doesn’t know crap now.

She knows Israel is commiting genocide in front of the eyes of the entire world. There is no coming back from this.

I see my own kids and cannot fathom the horror.

You can all be like Amy Schumer and project your pearl clutching and bring up beheaded babies but it’s becoming clear what the plan has been all along.

Biden can go to hell for supporting this

Your mom is so ignorant. Sorry, it’s true.

Have you taught her “from the river to the sea” yet?

Are you American or Israeli?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Cold hard fact - Gaza is full of horrible men and wives and children of horrible men.

I don’t recall in WW II we did not bomb Nazis cause they had kids and wives.

Ghaza is a ghetto full of dehumanized, dispossessed, bombed, starved humans whose only fault was being born in a land Israel wants to claim for itself. They are at the mercy of a savage state and people.

Israel would love it if Egypt took back the Gaza strip. Israel wants to be done with Gaza, but Hamas won't leave Israel alone.

. This is the problem. Israelis have for nearly a century refused to recognize that Palestinians lived there when they landed and have a substantiated right to the land. We have a serious disagreement as to how arriving settlers treat a native population. And somehow it’s Egypts fault? Egypt already took in 2M refugees violently expelled by Israel. You’re angry that people don’t willingly accept ethnic cleansing. Sorry to spoil your genocidal party

Egypt plays a big role in all of this. They had a nasty habit of starting wars with Israel until 1978.

Odd. I remember Israel had a nasty habit of stealing land and committing genocide. Could that have been a prelude?

Plus when Israel is done killing Palestinians, they’ll start they’d land grab from Lebanon, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. We all know that it won’t stop here

Ooh I know where you got that last part from!

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

- Hamas Charter

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?

I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.

So answer my question.

Yes you are.

A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.

7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/israel-population/
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

NOT ALL ISRAELIS ARE JEWS

You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.

This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.

As I see it, you can do one of three things:

1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.

2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.

3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.

Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?

The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.

Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.

So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?

Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?

So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?

Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.

Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?

Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.

Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.

So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?

So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?

You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.

I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.

But I assume you have ingenious ideas.

Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?

What’s your plan?

Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.

Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.

So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.

So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.

Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.

No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.

Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.

I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.

I have said that many times.

I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.

I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.

People have said “I don’t care.”

So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.

You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either

And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.

I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.

And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.

The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.

It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.

Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.

Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.

No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.

You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.

I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?

That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.

So I have to explain it again:

One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.

Many on this thread have proposed one state.

The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.

Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.

If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.

But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.

And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.

Ok with you?

And if the situation stays unchanged, Palestinians in Gaza are getting killed en masse. Ok with you?

I’m not the one saying I don’t care what happens to millions of people.

So answer my question.

Yes you are.

A single state with 5 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis (using the UN's estimated 2023 numbers) is not the guaranteed holocaust you think it is. There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters before this war started.

7 million Israeli Jews. 9 million Palestinians including those in all parts of the land under contention. Check your goddamn facts.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/israel-population/
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

NOT ALL ISRAELIS ARE JEWS

You're vastly over counting the Palestinians, which is a bit ironic. Are the Druze, Bedouins, Circassians, etc going to join as well? Is there any scenario where the United States would let that happen? There were only 30,000 Hamas fighters in September.

This entire thing is predicated on the US withdrawing support because I was responding to what these posters have asked for.

As I see it, you can do one of three things:

1. Look for a 2 state soln. Yes, the Palestinians were wrong not to get to yes in the 90’s but since then, the West Bank settler crazies have been embraced by the govt and it is much harder now.

2. Maintain status quo. Where Israeli Jews’ security is bought at the cost of suppression of Palestinian human rights. And what we just learned is that the security is a bit of a myth because terrorist groups are operating effectively in this situation.

3. 1 state democracy. Which could mean Israel over time could cease to exist as a Jewish state. It’s not a great solution but I do know that minority rule never works in the long run.

Do you recognize that a one state democracy can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews if Hamas still exists?

The current status quo can’t guarantee the safety of Israeli Jews either. And as other posters defending Israel have pointed out, Israel’s current campaign to “eliminate” Hamas seems unlikely to do that.

Which brings me again to the annoying but inevitable conclusion that there are no good options here.

So why is razing Gaza the best of these no good options? Why is killing thousands of innocent children the best option?

Did I say it is? Why do you all keep putting words in my mouth?

So what would be the best of Israel’s bad options?

I like Naftali Bennett’s plan. Look it up.