Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”
https://twitter.com/mattwalshblog/status/1665860950409244673?s=46&t=X605tXq86EtH5m7JHoGWFQ

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

The power doesn’t just come from a very marginalized population. That population has the White House and major corporations behind them, as well as lots of legislators. At least be honest

Yes, let's be honest. Neither the White House nor a single corporation has bullied any anti-trans person or caused someone who has detransitioned to retransition.

Meanwhile, Florida has just prohibited gender affirming care for minors and made it extremely difficult for even adults to get such care. Just ignore that and be in awe of a Pride display at Target. That's where the real power is, right?

So did Scandinavia. It's a way of protecting trans kids from medical malpractice. Trans kids deserve evidence based medicine like anyone else, they're not lab rats.

Scandinavia is not a country. I don't know about the other countries, but in Sweden eligible minors can still get gender affirming care that is not available in Florida.

Sweden isn't the only country in Scandinavia. Sweden, Norway, and Finland were mentioned a few posts ago as banning and restricting "gender affirming care" for minors. Those are all Scandinavian countries, FYI. Hence the reference to Scandinavia, not just Sweden. You claim that trans kids in Sweden can get "gender affirming care" that kids in Florida can't get, but you don't provide any evidence. Please provide a link or source for your claim.

Since people are so interested in Sweden, here are some quotes from a National Health Board researcher:

Back in 2015, the Swedish health authority had stated that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones were “safe”. These treatments are designed to help people with gender dysphoria transition from their biological sex to the gender they personally identify with.

Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare explains that the reason behind the rollback is that little is known about the effects of these treatments over the long term and "the risks outweigh the benefits currently".

However, experts say those treatments were designed for exceptional cases in the first place.

"We had a protocol in place which was designed for very rare and extreme cases and suddenly the demand exploded so we continued to use that protocol,” said Mikael Landen, a psychiatrist specialising in gender dysphoria who contributed to the scientific study on which Sweden’s health authority based its decision.

“Maybe we shouldn’t have done that. But I wouldn’t be the one criticising the clinicians for doing that because it was difficult, they wanted to help these patients," he told AFP.

[Anonymous]

Link from legit source?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Link from legit source?

So a direct quote from a Swedish Health Board representative is not enough for you? Interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Link from legit source?

Can you read Swedish? https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/om-socialstyrelsen/pressrum/press/uppdaterat-kunskapsstod-for-vard-vid-konsdysfori-hos-unga/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Link from legit source?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Link from legit source?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-172458496.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAC-PRO93xLlvf50TsAIAIYeHoAmRflBHZIm6y82UxudpwBEkn6vFRoVQnn_fwrE-xt93dX2l2oz_R_TJKuZSuB3MfJgz53LW8DErHBBhQTAbyM4SVWMmdui4XBIThEjySS1ZfnqQ2abMPaOEPKI5T-9NxarerTjThfSPbjCQwGaz

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

The power doesn’t just come from a very marginalized population. That population has the White House and major corporations behind them, as well as lots of legislators. At least be honest

Yes, let's be honest. Neither the White House nor a single corporation has bullied any anti-trans person or caused someone who has detransitioned to retransition.

Meanwhile, Florida has just prohibited gender affirming care for minors and made it extremely difficult for even adults to get such care. Just ignore that and be in awe of a Pride display at Target. That's where the real power is, right?

What exactly does the Florida bill require for adults?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

The power doesn’t just come from a very marginalized population. That population has the White House and major corporations behind them, as well as lots of legislators. At least be honest

Yes, let's be honest. Neither the White House nor a single corporation has bullied any anti-trans person or caused someone who has detransitioned to retransition.

Meanwhile, Florida has just prohibited gender affirming care for minors and made it extremely difficult for even adults to get such care. Just ignore that and be in awe of a Pride display at Target. That's where the real power is, right?

What exactly does the Florida bill require for adults?

See this article:

https://wapo.st/3MUS1BW

(that's a gift link for those without a subscription).

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

I think this is where the discussion becomes very nuanced. If it is a teacher with an agenda, and they are purposefully misgendering because they don’t believe that trans people exist (or anything along that line), then that’s sh¡tty. But as someone who has worked with trans people for 15+ years, it is very easy to accidentally misgender someone when you are seeing multiple patients a day. Most of the trans patients I have do not overtly present as the gender they identify with - most just have one subtle change, such as long hair or nail polish (which I may not see at first). We don’t typically put a trans alert on the chart, and sometimes I walk in to greet the patient before even reading the chart. So if I walk in and see what appears to be a male, sometimes a “good morning sir!” or some such slips out. Not all misgendering an are intentional.

But again, is appropriate gendering a basic right? I’m not so sure.