Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

And sorry, I didn’t answer your question. If someone purposefully misgendered me I’m not sure how I’d react. I had short hair growing up and was always mistaken for a boy. And I now have short hair (I lost it due to chemo and it’s now growing back) and I had a double mastectomy with no reconstruction so I literally look like a man. So I’m quite used to misgendering! But it’s usually not on purpose. If someone purposefully misgendered me probably I’d just think that’s them being an a$$.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

Translation: If I keep insisting that I want to hear two words, then it never happened. It’s perfectly ok for Penn administration to say “don’t do X or you will regret it. So it would be perfectly OK if Penn staff said the same to a transgendered individual? That they would regret talking to the media? You would lose your mind and you know it.

Your ‘marginalized’ group seems to have enough power to convince doctors to cut off healthy body parts, make bank on medications, etc. They have the backing of Hollywood, mainstream media, and the Biden administration. That’s hardly marginalized.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

I think this is where the discussion becomes very nuanced. If it is a teacher with an agenda, and they are purposefully misgendering because they don’t believe that trans people exist (or anything along that line), then that’s sh¡tty. But as someone who has worked with trans people for 15+ years, it is very easy to accidentally misgender someone when you are seeing multiple patients a day. Most of the trans patients I have do not overtly present as the gender they identify with - most just have one subtle change, such as long hair or nail polish (which I may not see at first). We don’t typically put a trans alert on the chart, and sometimes I walk in to greet the patient before even reading the chart. So if I walk in and see what appears to be a male, sometimes a “good morning sir!” or some such slips out. Not all misgendering an are intentional.

But again, is appropriate gendering a basic right? I’m not so sure.

Obviously the laws are not about accidental misgendering. The bill that you cited was clearly about teachers who are either prohibited from using preferred pronouns or exempted from doing so due to religious objections.

I wonder what would happen if students began misgendering a teacher who refused to use a student's preferred pronouns? I suspect that legislators would be much less eager to create legislation supporting the students.

You noted in your follow-up post that you would not be particularly pleased by being purposely misgendered. Now imagine that you were a teenager struggling with gender identity. Also imagine that your teacher is not only being a jerk, but the state's legislature passed a bill to empower by law the teacher's being a jerk.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

I think this is where the discussion becomes very nuanced. If it is a teacher with an agenda, and they are purposefully misgendering because they don’t believe that trans people exist (or anything along that line), then that’s sh¡tty. But as someone who has worked with trans people for 15+ years, it is very easy to accidentally misgender someone when you are seeing multiple patients a day. Most of the trans patients I have do not overtly present as the gender they identify with - most just have one subtle change, such as long hair or nail polish (which I may not see at first). We don’t typically put a trans alert on the chart, and sometimes I walk in to greet the patient before even reading the chart. So if I walk in and see what appears to be a male, sometimes a “good morning sir!” or some such slips out. Not all misgendering an are intentional.

But again, is appropriate gendering a basic right? I’m not so sure.

Obviously the laws are not about accidental misgendering. The bill that you cited was clearly about teachers who are either prohibited from using preferred pronouns or exempted from doing so due to religious objections.

I wonder what would happen if students began misgendering a teacher who refused to use a student's preferred pronouns? I suspect that legislators would be much less eager to create legislation supporting the students.

You noted in your follow-up post that you would not be particularly pleased by being purposely misgendered. Now imagine that you were a teenager struggling with gender identity. Also imagine that your teacher is not only being a jerk, but the state's legislature passed a bill to empower by law the teacher's being a jerk.

Would it suck? Yes. Would it be taking away my rights? No.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”

Again, no threat to scholarships or jobs. This is getting to be like whack-a-mole.

Let's review how we got here. A poster claimed that trans activists are so powerful that they convince people who have detransitioned to retransition. That's absurd on the face of it. Yet, rather than accept that the claim is absurd and move on, you folks are trying to split hairs about what "you will regret it" means. It certainly has nothing to do with transition.

I will return to my earlier point. On one side you have a marginalized group who have little power behind their Twitter accounts. On the other, you have an entire political party and several state governments hellbent on taking away their rights. According to you folks, the intimidating party is the Twitter posters. Your evidence? Biden criticizing a law and a warning not to speak to the media. Are you serious?

What rights are they hell bent on taking away?

Go here and read:

https://translegislation.com

I haven’t delved into it very far, but on the front page it talks about misgendering a transperson. I’m sorry, but that is not taking away someone’s rights. I was thinking I would be reading legislation that bans trans people from obtaining lifesaving healthcare or housing or food service. That would be taking away someone’s rights. Not using preferred pronouns? No so much. That’s just being a d¡ck.

There are 556 bills they are monitoring for this year alone. Keep reading.

However, I think there is a legitimate discussion to be held about whether kids have the right to be identified by their preferred pronouns. How would you feel if a teacher purposely misgendered you?

Ok I kept reading. Just came to the “Preventing Violence Against Female Inmates” act. Which wants to segregate prisoners based on biological sex.
Once again this is where the hype comes in. This is a common sense bit of legislation. This is not taking away the rights of trans people. This is ensuring the safety of all.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

The power doesn’t just come from a very marginalized population. That population has the White House and major corporations behind them, as well as lots of legislators. At least be honest

Yes, let's be honest. Neither the White House nor a single corporation has bullied any anti-trans person or caused someone who has detransitioned to retransition.

Meanwhile, Florida has just prohibited gender affirming care for minors and made it extremely difficult for even adults to get such care. Just ignore that and be in awe of a Pride display at Target. That's where the real power is, right?

What exactly does the Florida bill require for adults?

See this article:

https://wapo.st/3MUS1BW

(that's a gift link for those without a subscription).

How interesting that media reports do not describe the specifics of the bill.

Florida’s Senate Bill 254, the gender-affirming health care ban, will prevent transgender minors from accessing puberty blockers, hormone replacement therapy and surgeries. Transgender adults under the new law, which is effective immediately, will be required to clear several additional regulatory hurdles to receive gender-affirming health care in Florida. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4008737-desantis-signs-transgender-bathroom-bill-bans-gender-affirming-care-expands-dont-say-gay-law/

The new "additional regulatory hurdles" appear to be informed consent. I disagree that requiring informed consent make it "extremely difficult to get care". It is surprising that informed consent was not done when patients will be having surgical procedures or taking drugs including hormones that may cause chemical castration. Your position is that informed consent makes it extremely difficult to get care?

(2) If sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures are prescribed for or administered or performed on patients 18 years of age or older, consent must be voluntary, informed, and in writing on forms adopted in rule by the Board of Medicine and the Board of Osteopathic Medicine. Consent to sex reassignment prescriptions or procedures is voluntary and informed only if the physician who is to prescribe or administer the pharmaceutical product or perform the procedure has, at a minimum, while physically present in the same room:

(a) Informed the patient of the nature and risks of the prescription or procedure in order for the patient to make a prudent decision;
(b) Provided the informed consent form, as adopted in rule by the Board of Medicine and the Board of Osteopathic Medicine, to the patient; and
(c) Received the patient’s written acknowledgment, before the prescription or procedure is prescribed, administered, or performed, that the information required to be provided under this subsection has been provided.
(3) Sex-reassignment prescriptions or procedures may not be prescribed, administered, or performed except by a physician. For the purposes of this section, the term “physician” is defined as a physician licensed under chapter 458 or chapter 459 or a physician practicing medicine or osteopathic medicine in the employment of the Federal Government.

(4) Consent required under subsection (2) does not apply to renewals of prescriptions consistent with those referenced under s. 456.001(9)(a)1. and 2. if a physician and his or her patient have met the requirements for consent for the initial prescription or renewal. However, separate consent is required for any new prescription for a pharmaceutical product not previously prescribed to the patient.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/254/BillText/er/HTML

[Anonymous]

“Protection of Women in Sports” act wants to separate sports based on biological sex. Makes absolute scientific sense.
Since when is participating in sports a right anyway? This is where you lose me and many of us. No one’s rights are being violated with this act.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”
https://twitter.com/mattwalshblog/status/1665860950409244673?s=46&t=X605tXq86EtH5m7JHoGWFQ

The "team mate" is anti-trans conservative who follows Daily Wire, Independent Women's Forum, Newsmax, Tucker Carlson, Tomi Lahren, DeSantis, Trump, "anti-wokeness", etc.

And she is BIG on misgendering people.
https://twitter.com/PaulaYScanlan/

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:“Protection of Women in Sports” act wants to separate sports based on biological sex. Makes absolute scientific sense.
Since when is participating in sports a right anyway? This is where you lose me and many of us. No one’s rights are being violated with this act.

Again, there are 556 bills being tracked this year alone. Cherrypicking a few of them does not really demonstrate anything other than your interest in denying the reality of the anti-trans movement in this country.

Also, keep in mind that some of the laws that claim to be aimed at children restrict gender-affirming care to anyone under 26, which means that it impacts adults between ages 21-25.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Protection of Women in Sports” act wants to separate sports based on biological sex. Makes absolute scientific sense.
Since when is participating in sports a right anyway? This is where you lose me and many of us. No one’s rights are being violated with this act.

Again, there are 556 bills being tracked this year alone. Cherrypicking a few of them does not really demonstrate anything other than your interest in denying the reality of the anti-trans movement in this country.

Also, keep in mind that some of the laws that claim to be aimed at children restrict gender-affirming care to anyone under 26, which means that it impacts adults between ages 21-25.

And once again, including common sense legislation that does nothing to prevent a transperson from “existing in society” (as that website proclaims as one of its purposes) only makes your list longer, not more persuasive. I don’t have time to read them all, but I’ve read quite a few and none of them are taking away a trans persons right to basic healthcare, education, legal recognition or the right to exist in society.
If there is actual anti trans legislation that does any of the aforementioned, I’d like to see it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Protection of Women in Sports” act wants to separate sports based on biological sex. Makes absolute scientific sense.
Since when is participating in sports a right anyway? This is where you lose me and many of us. No one’s rights are being violated with this act.

Well said.

There's much sciencephobia and logicphobia in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Evidence what happened? (DP). That they had to change while Lia was present? That Lia hadn’t had “bottom surgery”?

But where is evidence that "brightest scholar athletes in this country are told they will lose scholarships and jobs"?

9:00 mark. From the Penn administration. “Don’t talk to the media. You will regret it.”
https://twitter.com/mattwalshblog/status/1665860950409244673?s=46&t=X605tXq86EtH5m7JHoGWFQ

The "team mate" is anti-trans conservative who follows Daily Wire, Independent Women's Forum, Newsmax, Tucker Carlson, Tomi Lahren, DeSantis, Trump, "anti-wokeness", etc.

And she is BIG on misgendering people.
https://twitter.com/PaulaYScanlan/

People are allowed to have different political opinions. None of that changes the fact that she was told by her school administrators “if you talk to the media, you’ll regret it”.

[Anonymous]

Every single item on the anti-trans wish list could be fulfilled and it wouldn't be enough. Trans people in sports, locker rooms, even bathrooms. Trans kids being refused gender affirming care. Even forcing trans kids to "therapy" that is supposed to "cure" transness through prayer or trying really hard not to transition.

It wouldn't be enough. When you talk to most of these people and they're honest, they actually want to ban all trans people of all ages from transitioning. They don't want trans women and trans men to transition and just stay home. It has little to do with bathrooms or kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every single item on the anti-trans wish list could be fulfilled and it wouldn't be enough. Trans people in sports, locker rooms, even bathrooms. Trans kids being refused gender affirming care. Even forcing trans kids to "therapy" that is supposed to "cure" transness through prayer or trying really hard not to transition.

It wouldn't be enough. When you talk to most of these people and they're honest, they actually want to ban all trans people of all ages from transitioning. They don't want trans women and trans men to transition and just stay home. It has little to do with bathrooms or kids.

This is not true for me at all. I am the PP with many trans patients. I treat them with kindness and respect. But I want sports, prisons and bathrooms separated by biological sex. I’m not asking for a lot. I’m not violating anyone’s rights with my request.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every single item on the anti-trans wish list could be fulfilled and it wouldn't be enough. Trans people in sports, locker rooms, even bathrooms. Trans kids being refused gender affirming care. Even forcing trans kids to "therapy" that is supposed to "cure" transness through prayer or trying really hard not to transition.

It wouldn't be enough. When you talk to most of these people and they're honest, they actually want to ban all trans people of all ages from transitioning. They don't want trans women and trans men to transition and just stay home. It has little to do with bathrooms or kids.

This is not true for me at all. I am the PP with many trans patients. I treat them with kindness and respect. But I want sports, prisons and bathrooms separated by biological sex. I’m not asking for a lot. I’m not violating anyone’s rights with my request.

What is it about bathrooms? When you want bathroom segregation by AGAB, it separates you from the rest of the people. Most people don’t mind trans men in the men’s room and trans women in the women’s room. You’re going to be hard pressed to win this one.