Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Jeff, I realize that discussions of this nature frequently get contentious, but why did you lock this thread? I think it's useful to hear ideas and share experiences about why some people are not on board with aspects of LGBTQIA+ activism, as long as they aren't hateful.

[jsteele]

I got tired of removing posts that I considered hateful from that thread. Of course, the authors of those posts will deny that they are hateful because they obviously believe that calling trans women men and accusing them of having mental health issues are just differences of opinion. But, I don't find such posts acceptable.

Every trans-related thread here ultimately goes the same way. It's just too much effort to try to keep the threads civil.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

They won't change immediately if you're nice to them either. People change their minds between conversations, not during them. And I do think good-faith conversations about this are best had in-person.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

One of the bigger revelations I've seen here is posters who start out saying, "I fully respect trans people but I am concerned about biological males coming into women's locker rooms" but just a few pages later, going full transphobe and saying something like, "why should I share a locker room with a mentally ill man who thinks he's a woman?" and then degenerating even further from there. I don't know if the line between these two position is so blurred that people don't know when they've crossed it or if they always had the second position but tried to hide it. Regardless, that sort of behavior had make moderating such discussions nearly impossible.

BTW, I lived for a year in the middle east among Muslims who had much different conceptions of modesty than I did. They considered nudity even among males to be shameful and, as such, locker room norms were completely different than in the US. I learned that there are ways to respect others modesty that don't require a DCUM discussion or the involvement of politicians. One would think the same is true here.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

One of the bigger revelations I've seen here is posters who start out saying, "I fully respect trans people but I am concerned about biological males coming into women's locker rooms" but just a few pages later, going full transphobe and saying something like, "why should I share a locker room with a mentally ill man who thinks he's a woman?" and then degenerating even further from there. I don't know if the line between these two position is so blurred that people don't know when they've crossed it or if they always had the second position but tried to hide it. Regardless, that sort of behavior had make moderating such discussions nearly impossible.

BTW, I lived for a year in the middle east among Muslims who had much different conceptions of modesty than I did. They considered nudity even among males to be shameful and, as such, locker room norms were completely different than in the US. I learned that there are ways to respect others modesty that don't require a DCUM discussion or the involvement of politicians. One would think the same is true here.

Wow. I didn't realize the same posters were making both of those types of comments.

It's impossible to have a good faith discussion here with all of the anti-trans posters. Not sure what really needs to be discussed anyway outside of parents looking for resources for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, I realize that discussions of this nature frequently get contentious, but why did you lock this thread? I think it's useful to hear ideas and share experiences about why some people are not on board with aspects of LGBTQIA+ activism, as long as they aren't hateful .

NP. Look, I want to believe you are well-intentioned, but just the way you posed the question betrays your bias. What you call “LGBTQIA+ activism” is people fighting for the simple right to live their lives in peace. To be able to use the bathroom, change clothes, seek health care, care for their children, and go to school or work without fear of humiliation, abuse, or arrest.

If you want to debate that right, then you want to debate people’s right to exist. There’s no way to do that without being hateful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

One of the bigger revelations I've seen here is posters who start out saying, "I fully respect trans people but I am concerned about biological males coming into women's locker rooms" but just a few pages later, going full transphobe and saying something like, "why should I share a locker room with a mentally ill man who thinks he's a woman?" and then degenerating even further from there. I don't know if the line between these two position is so blurred that people don't know when they've crossed it or if they always had the second position but tried to hide it. Regardless, that sort of behavior had make moderating such discussions nearly impossible.

BTW, I lived for a year in the middle east among Muslims who had much different conceptions of modesty than I did. They considered nudity even among males to be shameful and, as such, locker room norms were completely different than in the US. I learned that there are ways to respect others modesty that don't require a DCUM discussion or the involvement of politicians. One would think the same is true here.

Wow. I didn't realize the same posters were making both of those types of comments.

It's impossible to have a good faith discussion here with all of the anti-trans posters. Not sure what really needs to be discussed anyway outside of parents looking for resources for their kids.

I have always suspected as much and cam gratified to be proven correct.

[jsteele]

Exactly this pattern occurred this this evening. A poster started a thread about a teacher who is announcing that is announcing that they are non-binary. The original poster said that her family is trans-supporting and later claimed that her children are taught to respect everyone. But, several pages later posted this:

"Not a disgusting freak with his privates mutilated or a poor confused nutcase who doesn’t know if he’s a man a woman a thing or a what. Yuck."

A lot of trans-support and respect going on there, right?

So forgive my cynicism when it comes to the the "I respect trans people but..." crowd.

[Anonymous]

Jeff, I quite sure OP here is also a member of the "I respect trans people but..." crowd. They're disappointed that they can't continue to "debate."

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Exactly this pattern occurred this this evening. A poster started a thread about a teacher who is announcing that is announcing that they are non-binary. The original poster said that her family is trans-supporting and later claimed that her children are taught to respect everyone. But, several pages later posted this:

"Not a disgusting freak with his privates mutilated or a poor confused nutcase who doesn’t know if he’s a man a woman a thing or a what. Yuck."

A lot of trans-support and respect going on there, right?

So forgive my cynicism when it comes to the the "I respect trans people but..." crowd.

Wow. Do they post on other controversial topics or are they focused on just anti-trans topics?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Exactly this pattern occurred this this evening. A poster started a thread about a teacher who is announcing that is announcing that they are non-binary. The original poster said that her family is trans-supporting and later claimed that her children are taught to respect everyone. But, several pages later posted this:

"Not a disgusting freak with his privates mutilated or a poor confused nutcase who doesn’t know if he’s a man a woman a thing or a what. Yuck."

A lot of trans-support and respect going on there, right?

So forgive my cynicism when it comes to the the "I respect trans people but..." crowd.

I appreciate it when you let us know when people who think they will not be found out post conflicting opinions such as this OP did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the explanation. I get it. I just wish there were somewhere we could discuss these issues in good faith. Changing minds requires changing identities and rethinking complicated long-held beliefs, which will never happen in a vacuum. Take the issue of trans people and locker rooms. For many people, it's not about hating trans people individually or as a group. Instead, their own concept of modesty makes them more comfortable around people whose bodies are similar to theirs. That's the way they have been conditioned. There is so much baked into those ideas about personal privacy that you can't scream "transphobe" at them and expect them to change immediately.

One of the bigger revelations I've seen here is posters who start out saying, "I fully respect trans people but I am concerned about biological males coming into women's locker rooms" but just a few pages later, going full transphobe and saying something like, "why should I share a locker room with a mentally ill man who thinks he's a woman?" and then degenerating even further from there. I don't know if the line between these two position is so blurred that people don't know when they've crossed it or if they always had the second position but tried to hide it. Regardless, that sort of behavior had make moderating such discussions nearly impossible.

BTW, I lived for a year in the middle east among Muslims who had much different conceptions of modesty than I did. They considered nudity even among males to be shameful and, as such, locker room norms were completely different than in the US. I learned that there are ways to respect others modesty that don't require a DCUM discussion or the involvement of politicians. One would think the same is true here.

Wow. I didn't realize the same posters were making both of those types of comments.

It's impossible to have a good faith discussion here with all of the anti-trans posters. Not sure what really needs to be discussed anyway outside of parents looking for resources for their kids.

I have always suspected as much and cam gratified to be proven correct.

+1
I'm not sure why I continue to try to respond to these hate mongers, but I head in there every now and then and it's just soul crushing how much hate people have toward other humans and call it justified. They're so puffed up with their "we must protect women" and "don't call us TERFs, you hate all women" that it's just nauseating. They're liars and operate with complete bad faith.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:I got tired of removing posts that I considered hateful from that thread. Of course, the authors of those posts will deny that they are hateful because they obviously believe that calling trans women men and accusing them of having mental health issues are just differences of opinion. But, I don't find such posts acceptable.

Every trans-related thread here ultimately goes the same way. It's just too much effort to try to keep the threads civil.

My kid has identified as trans. He most definitely has mental health issues, diagnosed well before. OCD and on the spectrum. What's cruel is the medical community and trans community preying on him, determined to separate him from a family who has always been his advocate.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:I got tired of removing posts that I considered hateful from that thread. Of course, the authors of those posts will deny that they are hateful because they obviously believe that calling trans women men and accusing them of having mental health issues are just differences of opinion. But, I don't find such posts acceptable.

Every trans-related thread here ultimately goes the same way. It's just too much effort to try to keep the threads civil.

My kid has identified as trans. He most definitely has mental health issues, diagnosed well before. OCD and on the spectrum. What's cruel is the medical community and trans community preying on him, determined to separate him from a family who has always been his advocate.

Yes, you have been repeating this non-stop. It is very clear that you are not willing to accept your child's trans identity and prefer to view them as mentally ill and a victim of groomers. That is not a healthy attitude and, as you are seeing, the results are not good. I hope that your child will find love and support from those who truly are their advocate.