Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was in biglaw for 10 years but left before I had kids. I saw no one who was successful long term that had kids that didn’t have a spouse that either was a sah or cut way back on their own career. Since you don’t seem to want to stay long term and make partner, that doesn’t need to mean that you can’t stay a few years more if you are willing to continuing working long hours.

You absolutely need a nanny, and you need to subscribe to a back up nanny service for the rare times when your nanny is sick if you don’t have families or friends in the area, or the ability to cover yourself. Not only will the nanny rid you having to do drop offs and pick ups, they can do light housekeeping that will help free up the time when you are home from the more mundane tasks like laundry or groceries. Ideally, hire someone who can cook. I could not have continued to work as an attorney, even outside of big law , with a spouse with a demanding job, without a nanny.

I don’t think it is true that babyhood is the hardest part, it gets harder when your kids have homework and activities in the evening although you I’ll be sleeping better. It is true that your kid will not remember these early years, but you will. Plan your next career moves to give you the family life you want, because kids grow up really fast, and there is no turning back the clock.

DP. I promise I'm not picking on PP, even though what I am about say will sound like I am.

I agree with this PP and the many others who have advised outsourcing as a way to make it through BigLaw or another BigCareer. A prerequisite for that, though, is that you are ok not doing the things that you are outsourcing. I can throw money at problems with the best of them. I wasn't willing, however, to have someone else (including my husband) do so many of the things that I see as part of being a parent. I want to see my kids at the end of the school day, be active at their school, make and eat dinner with them, get them to practices and activities, know their friends and teammates and their families. That means not being in the office (or working feverishly out of the office) all the time. Some working moms may hate all of those tasks and/or be willing to have nannies or au pairs or grandparents or other parents take on those roles. But if you, like me, are not happy with that approach, even outsourcing won't help.

Best post of the thread. Totally agree. Those are the “ifs” OP has to deal with. The rest is easy, you can outsource every aspect of childcare, cleaning, meals, etc but you have to accept the trade off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is the best real life version of dismembering the whole “you can have it all”, “lean in”, and female empowerment as the new buzzword that I have ever seen.

Fascinating read of women who breeze through any nurturing urges, heartstrings pulled at just being with their babies, ignoring the biological needs of a baby and it’s mother that is seen in all forms of nature, with humans the only ones actively breaking that bond.

Such an interesting read

So apparently fathers who work long hours don't have any nurturing urges either?

[Anonymous]

Please lock this thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please lock this thread

Good job bumping it back up to add this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm of course not saying that it is easy or that it doesn't entail sacrifices, but I think many people on this board are making it sound harder/more impossible than it is. That people would immediately tell OP (or others in her shoes) to quit is disconcerting because with that mindset women will never be able to achieve an equal place in the office.

I have two kids 7 and 4. The younger is in daycare; the older does aftercare at school. DH, who has a FT but fairly flexible job, does almost all drop offs/pickups. He does most of the cooking and stuff around the house, although we have someone clean once a week and we have come to accept that the house will be a little messy. He can almost always cover the (thankfully relatively rare) times the kids are sick or have some other scheduling issue that is out of the ordinary. But, I am usually able to block off important things like school plays and I've almost never missed something like that.

I make it home for dinner, or at least bedtime, more nights than not. On the days that I stay late, I usually stay very late. That makes it easier to get home other nights. I'll also obviously log on some times from home after the kids go to sleep. I also don't have to travel much, which helps a lot, but I also know not all practice areas have that benefit. I'm generally able to keep my weekends free and devote it almost exclusively to family activities.

It isn't easy, but it also isn't impossible or a bad life. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the benefits my work provides. I don't know that I will do it forever, but doing it as long as I have has given us tremendous financial freedom going forward and it also has opened up plenty of other doors once I decide it is time do something else.

It isn't for everyone, but I wouldn't just assume that kids has to mean the end of a Biglaw career.

Just want to echo that I’ve had almost the same experience. I am a regulatory lawyer so that generally makes the hours a bit easier, and my husband is the default parent for now (but I’ve also been the default parent when he had a different job and traveled much more) but I think there are ways to figure out how to make it work for you, especially if you don’t think you will stay forever. Also not everyone’s way of making it work looks the the same, and that’s ok. OP, cheers to making it work in the short-term, I know you can do it!

It makes a big difference. DH and I were both in Biglaw, I as a litigator, he as a regulatory lawyer. He left for the government because he wanted to be home for dinner every night once we had kids, but had he stayed, it would have been manageable if he didn't insist on being home for dinner, because he worked a pretty standard 9-8 with few emergencies. As a trial litigator, it was a totally different story for me. I'd have weeks where I worked 9-6, and weeks where I worked until 2 am or later and all day on the weekends. And often I'd be thinking I'd leave at 6 and at 4:30 something would come in and it would be a 2 am night. You just can't be the default parent with a schedule like that. So I decamped for the government and appellate litigation, which I adore, and I am much happier. I get home with one kid and cook dinner every night, and DH arrives home with the other kid in time for dinner, and we eat as a family. This is important to us. It isn't to everyone, of course, but it is to us, and Biglaw just would not permit that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a client, I find it helpful when lawyers communicate to me what their schedule patterns are or when they might be getting back to me. Like, I worked with a male partner who didn’t tend to work much past five pm or so, but he liked to wake up really early in the morning. So if I sent him a markup at four or five, or if we had a call at four or five and he said he would send me something, I knew I probably wouldn’t hear back from him that night, but I would hear back in the morning. I like to know an estimate for when I might hear back, because then I am not sitting around checking my phone. I’d rather know, ok, I can go off and do something else, because I’m not hearing from him today.

This is important to know as a junior person, too. As another poster suggested, when I was a junior associate I tended to go the gym around 5 pm (there was a gym in the office building, very convenient!) and grab dinner afterwards to bring back up, because the senior partner I did most of my work for tended to go home around 5:30 and log back on at 8 or 9 pm. Meanwhile the junior partner, who reported to senior partner, stayed at the office until 10 pm every night, but she rarely went looking for me before 8 pm or so. So I'd do my workout and shower, bring dinner up to my office and eat it while working, and be at my desk from 7 until midnight or later. Perfect for being there when junior partner wanted to see me and perfect for responding to senior partner's night-time research demands. (Though I balked the one time he suggested I drive a pleading to him at 2 am. He wasn't very tech-savvy and didn't realize he could open it if I emailed it to him. We agreed that I'd print it out and leave it on his chair for when he came in at 6 am.)

It was an awful life but I learned a lot.

In my current life in the government I supervise 12 attorneys and 3 paralegals, and have two more senior people above me. I have to keep everyone's schedule in mind. But I notice that a lot of the attorneys who report to me don't. The ones who do, like me, were trained at law firms (big or small). The government lifers just do what they want to do and don't care if that doesn't work for their supervisors' schedule or for the paralegals' schedule (which is equally important to consider when you're in litigation!).

[Anonymous]

Agree that you can outsource a lot but have to be okay with that trade off. Personally, I was not. And I did not see a way to have the life that I wanted inside of big law litigation.

Though I’m a DC native and did the big law thing for a bit after clerking, my husband and I moved back to the Midwest city where I went to law school. I joined a well regarded regional firm and am an equity partner. My husband is a partner at a larger regional firm. No situation is perfect, and my billable are high some years, but I’m really happy with our life. We have two young kids, and I am home to make them dinner / hang out most nights, even if I sign on later. The keys for us are that (1) our home is 5 mins from my office and their preschools; (2) the attitude around family is different here; and (3) I specialize in appellate / critical motions and have a bit more control over my schedule. The move has allowed me to have a balance that feels right.

Wishing everyone in the lawyer / parent roles the best. It’s really tough!

[Anonymous]

Please get a professional nanny and a screening for postpartum anxiety. Don’t cut back to 80% schedule. Keep going for one year before you do anything drastic. Give yourself time to recover, sleep and let your hormones recover. Find your new normal and then decide. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Why is everyone mad at OP for not wanting to move to those midwestern cities? They sound terrible to me too! (I’m Asian)

Also, I know next to nothing about BigLaw, but it sounds like you do need to plan your exit, OP. If you were the workaholic type then it would make sense to stay and hire extra childcare, but it sounds like you miss your baby, so you need to find a more flexible job. So what if you pay your loan back in 2-3 years instead of 1? Long term, it won’t make much of a financial difference, but your quality of life will improve dramatically. There were a few months during DD’s first year where I wasn’t around much due to work, and I still feel twinges of guilt. Like you, my family is my first priority, not some brass ring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is everyone mad at OP for not wanting to move to those midwestern cities? They sound terrible to me too! (I’m Asian)

Also, I know next to nothing about BigLaw, but it sounds like you do need to plan your exit, OP. If you were the workaholic type then it would make sense to stay and hire extra childcare, but it sounds like you miss your baby, so you need to find a more flexible job. So what if you pay your loan back in 2-3 years instead of 1? Long term, it won’t make much of a financial difference, but your quality of life will improve dramatically. There were a few months during DD’s first year where I wasn’t around much due to work, and I still feel twinges of guilt. Like you, my family is my first priority, not some brass ring.

Eh, I was kind of a dick in the answer about the small cities. It was a joke but I get people being annoyed. Oh well.

But anyway, I think you're right. I don't want the extra outsourcing to succeed here, I want to be able to make bedtime. Thanks for phrasing that in a way that wasn't like some of the other posters insisting I'm screwing up my baby for not being around now. I see no problem with women working these hours if they enjoy the work/satisfaction of doing a good job, but I'm just not there.

Part of the reason I'm trying so hard to pay off the loans now is because without any loan payment or daycare, we can live off of DH's salary. It would be beyond nice to have the ability to stay home if I decide to. But, I don't think that's what I really want. I think I just want a 9-5. So, I am going to start to look, though I recognize it might take some time to find something that's the right fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is everyone mad at OP for not wanting to move to those midwestern cities? They sound terrible to me too! (I’m Asian)

Also, I know next to nothing about BigLaw, but it sounds like you do need to plan your exit, OP. If you were the workaholic type then it would make sense to stay and hire extra childcare, but it sounds like you miss your baby, so you need to find a more flexible job. So what if you pay your loan back in 2-3 years instead of 1? Long term, it won’t make much of a financial difference, but your quality of life will improve dramatically. There were a few months during DD’s first year where I wasn’t around much due to work, and I still feel twinges of guilt. Like you, my family is my first priority, not some brass ring.

Eh, I was kind of a dick in the answer about the small cities. It was a joke but I get people being annoyed. Oh well.

But anyway, I think you're right. I don't want the extra outsourcing to succeed here, I want to be able to make bedtime. Thanks for phrasing that in a way that wasn't like some of the other posters insisting I'm screwing up my baby for not being around now. I see no problem with women working these hours if they enjoy the work/satisfaction of doing a good job, but I'm just not there.

Part of the reason I'm trying so hard to pay off the loans now is because without any loan payment or daycare, we can live off of DH's salary. It would be beyond nice to have the ability to stay home if I decide to. But, I don't think that's what I really want. I think I just want a 9-5. So, I am going to start to look, though I recognize it might take some time to find something that's the right fit.

I think this last paragraph is a huge breakthrough, honestly. I also spent a lot of time/agony trying to get to a place where "I could stay home if I wanted to" but honestly? I don't want to! I don't want to work 60 hours a week but I also don't want to work zero. The good news is, there's a huge, huge gray area where you can work fewer hours and make enough money to pay off your loans and childcare. I think it's hard for some people (like me) who are more black and white thinkers, tend to be overachievers, etc., but it's actually amazing how many 'normal' jobs there are out there.

[Anonymous]

I would also consider lower cost of living cities!
Some ideas:
Nashville
Austin
Denver
Triangle area in NC

You can get a home there between 500k-1mil in the best public school area. That should be affordable with an in house job and your husband’s income and it still offered a lot of the things you love about the city. I wouldn’t rule it out.

I’ve lived in tier one cities my entire life and live in a smaller one now and I am very happy with that. (London, NYC, DC, LA, Copenhagen, DC, now in Denver)

[Anonymous]

There’s something in the middle of DC and Fargo if you’re looking for a cost of living difference. DC is not the end all be all, trust me. I used to be like you. In fact, I even remember feeling like what a downgrade DC would be from NYC. It never turned out to be the case! Although of all the cities I have lived, DC was probably my least favorite. Great city for visiting but kind of depressing culture to live in! Most people stay because they are lawyers or feds!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would also consider lower cost of living cities!
Some ideas:
Nashville
Austin
Denver
Triangle area in NC

You can get a home there between 500k-1mil in the best public school area. That should be affordable with an in house job and your husband’s income and it still offered a lot of the things you love about the city. I wouldn’t rule it out.

I’ve lived in tier one cities my entire life and live in a smaller one now and I am very happy with that. (London, NYC, DC, LA, Copenhagen, DC, now in Denver)

Your info is out of date, with the exception of maybe triangle area, these regions are hugely popular and have seen a tremendous increase in real estate values over the past 5 years.

[Anonymous]

They have seen a huge increase in real estate prices but you can still get a home in the best school district between 500-1mil. DC home prices are at least 25-100% more to live anywhere near the city in the most desirable areas than those areas are and that makes a huge difference. You can live a very decent life in any of those cities on $250k HHI.