Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

It’s a grind, day in day out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

It’s a grind, day in day out.

Am PP questioner. Thanks for the first explanation above. It makes sense. Could never understand just what takes so long a, la "I word 16 hours yesterday and need to work this weekend"(!) but this and the grind answer below it, in combination, ring true to this law world outsider. I make low to mid $200Ks and have never worked past 530ish,or maybe a little later, or on a weekend, I don't think ever, and I'm getting up there age-wise. Now, big-law lawyers make a lot more than I do, but it's like they have two jobs, one M-F 9-5 and a second job M-F from 7-10/11/12 and/or on weekends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

This has been my experience as well. Also, a lot of the client questions require pretty in-depth analysis of applicable statutes, regulations, and interpretative guidance. I think clients expect the answer to be an easy “yes” or “no” when they ask if they can do something and the answer is more often “maybe and here is a risk assessment.”

My DH is big law senior counsel and its insane how much work he does. He typically bills 2100 billable hours, plus pro-bono and business development. I think all in last year he did 3000 hours. We have two young kids and another on the way. He does government contracts litigation and writes A LOT. I have never seen another job where you sit on your computer all day and just write non stop. He is also very tedious about his writing (I guess all lawyers are) and will re-read an email before he sends it out to make sure it is grammatically correct and doesn't have any typos. I just shoot emails off left and right and rarely re-read them.

His hours vary but typically he works from 7am-7pm, comes home to have dinner and say goodnight to the kids and then most of the time logs back in for another hour or two unless there is something super pressing then he works until who knows when. This morning he was up at 4:45 so he could get into the office and get some writing done before other people got in and started bugging him. When he is working on a protest deadline the turn around is super quick so he usually does 16+ hour days to get things written and reviewed prior to sending it to the client for their input.

We don't have a nanny or housekeeper and I work full time but I work from home and have a super flexible job so I take care of the kid stuff and household stuff.

Why would you have a third child with this man? What is wrong with you?

I am the pp you quoted and I am not sure why you are questioning what is wrong with me. My two kids are relatively easy and we wanted a large family. Obviously we can afford it and I love having kids. Both kids started sleeping through the night at 8 weeks and are pretty chill kids.

[Anonymous]

I don’t work in big law- just another new(ish) mom trying to navigate the demands of a full time job and motherhood. First off, you’re doing an amazing job and what you’re going through is so relatable. I read through some of the comments- not all- but just wanted to add that maybe you can inquire about some flexible working arrangements. My father was a partner at a corporate law firm, and while I was growing up, I was lucky to see him late nights and weekends. As I got older and technology advanced, he was able to work from home sometimes. Can you negotiate a day a week at home? Or maybe 80%? Another brilliant big law friend of mine did this. She ultimately went in house elsewhere as legal counsel and works four days a week now. Whatever you decide, I hope it works out and you feel that you are better able to manage work while enjoying your baby. Good luck

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t work in big law- just another new(ish) mom trying to navigate the demands of a full time job and motherhood. First off, you’re doing an amazing job and what you’re going through is so relatable. I read through some of the comments- not all- but just wanted to add that maybe you can inquire about some flexible working arrangements. My father was a partner at a corporate law firm, and while I was growing up, I was lucky to see him late nights and weekends. As I got older and technology advanced, he was able to work from home sometimes. Can you negotiate a day a week at home? Or maybe 80%? Another brilliant big law friend of mine did this. She ultimately went in house elsewhere as legal counsel and works four days a week now. Whatever you decide, I hope it works out and you feel that you are better able to manage work while enjoying your baby. Good luck

No need to be so nasty to OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

incredibly tight deadlines and client demands, coupled with severe disciplinary consequences for even a minor mistake. It’s a profession where you are in danger of losing your job if you make one error.

[Anonymous]

I have relatives in the field. The way it was explained to me is this: law isn’t a science or math with a “right” answer; there’s always more you can say or another angle to think through. That, combined with the fact you have an adversary trying to undermine you, means stuff naturally just takes really long, especially if you’re thorough. I really don’t think it’s bill padding.

[Anonymous]

BigLaw is a kind of hell. DH BigLaw just went to reunion 25th? And you could really see the toll all those hours had taken. Room full of exhausted driven people. And some missing due to illness. Think twice before you devote your life to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have relatives in the field. The way it was explained to me is this: law isn’t a science or math with a “right” answer; there’s always more you can say or another angle to think through. That, combined with the fact you have an adversary trying to undermine you, means stuff naturally just takes really long, especially if you’re thorough. I really don’t think it’s bill padding.

Also, one mistake and career is over.

[Anonymous]

OP - I don't know if you're still reading. I am a lawyer mom at a small firm. I leave at 4:30 every day to meet my kids. I did BigLaw and it wasn't tenable with a family. There are options out there. Don't give up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basically what the title says. I've been back at work a couple of months now. It's hard. I expected it to be hard, but the total lack of any free time and sleep is killing me. Yes I'm browsing this board (my kid is asleep in my arms and I'm waiting a few minutes to transfer to the crib) but in general my day is: spend a couple of hours with the baby in the morning (this part is great), go to work, leave early to pick up kid from daycare and avoid glares from colleagues who are junior to me but still feel comfortable enough to be assholes, have like 30 minutes at home with baby before bed time, work 7-12, shower and go to bed (thank sweet Jesus baby is a good sleeper), repeat. The number of demanding "I need this right now" emails between 5-7 drive me insane with anxiety. DH works a 9-5 and does probably 80% of housework, so that's thankfully something I don't really need to worry about, but still I'm so overwhelmed always being on call.

I can't afford to quit (I make a lot more than him and still have a good chunk of debt). How do people do this? You can leave snarky comments if you want, whatever, but if you have actual advice please lay it on me because I feel like I'm losing my shit.

Consider moving to another area where the cost of living is cheaper. Is his job transferable? Can you get a job elsewhere? We get used to $ and think that we must have it all. if you are educated with jobs transferable to other ares, we can have a very comfortable life without having to die in the mouse's wheel. Rat race, whatever.
Try and find a financial adviser / accountant who can help you manage your finances and debt paying.
In the meantime you need a support group or some therapy. You could be suffering from postpartum syndrome, which is serious!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

Called my lawyer and asked 1 question. He answered in less than 5 minutes. Got billed $400 (it's $1600/hour and 5 minutes gets rounded to 15).
You'd think that at those rates, they would not need to work so much. sharks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

Called my lawyer and asked 1 question. He answered in less than 5 minutes. Got billed $400 (it's $1600/hour and 5 minutes gets rounded to 15).
You'd think that at those rates, they would not need to work so much. sharks!

If you can afford a lawyer at $1600/hour, you (or your company or whoever is paying the fees) are not hurting for money. Only a tiny fraction of one percent of lawyers charge those kinds of rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

Called my lawyer and asked 1 question. He answered in less than 5 minutes. Got billed $400 (it's $1600/hour and 5 minutes gets rounded to 15).
You'd think that at those rates, they would not need to work so much. sharks!

BS. No one bills $1600/hr. The highest hourly rate I've ever heard of is $700/hr and you have to be representing Hollywood royalty or Enron to get away with that. Highly doubt PP is either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

Called my lawyer and asked 1 question. He answered in less than 5 minutes. Got billed $400 (it's $1600/hour and 5 minutes gets rounded to 15).
You'd think that at those rates, they would not need to work so much. sharks!

BS. No one bills $1600/hr. The highest hourly rate I've ever heard of is $700/hr and you have to be representing Hollywood royalty or Enron to get away with that. Highly doubt PP is either.

You’re personal experience might be a bit limited. My husband bills out at about $1000/hour—he’s about 40 and at a really good firm, but, not a top firm and he’s not the highest rate in his firm. Plenty of people being billed out higher.