Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Big law just isn't worth it. Have an exit strategy, get a great salary with 50% of the hours. What you are doing now is digging an early grave.

This is absolutely true and incredibly hard to believe when you are in the thick of it. It is so much better on the other side.

[Anonymous]

This thread is the best real life version of dismembering the whole “you can have it all”, “lean in”, and female empowerment as the new buzzword that I have ever seen.

Fascinating read of women who breeze through any nurturing urges, heartstrings pulled at just being with their babies, ignoring the biological needs of a baby and it’s mother that is seen in all forms of nature, with humans the only ones actively breaking that bond.

Such an interesting read

[Anonymous]

Being home at 7 lol. I worked in Fortune500. Senior people dropped everyone junior their work between 4:30 and 7 with a breezy have it by morning ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, I don’t think it makes me an asshole to not want to move to Fargo, but to each her own. The comment was a joke but in all honesty, no I don’t want to live in those places. I’m from somewhere like that and much happier in large cities.

Yea, right. You sound absolutely thrilled.

You’re losing your audience

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I don’t think it makes me an asshole to not want to move to Fargo, but to each her own. The comment was a joke but in all honesty, no I don’t want to live in those places. I’m from somewhere like that and much happier in large cities.

Yea, right. You sound absolutely thrilled.

You’re losing your audience

I probably wouldn't want to live in Fargo, either, OP, but to each their own. You can't not want to live there and not be rude about the suggestion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.

A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.

I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.

IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.

Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.

The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.

There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.

At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.

The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.

You didn’t really respond to the reasons I gave why it isn’t that big of deal.

As for the partner, the partner isn’t going to be that upset of emails after 7. The partner probably sends such emails himself. Nor is the partner going to want to wade in unless it really reaches an unacceptable level. The senior associate is more valuable to the partner than a junior. At the end of the day, shit flows downhill and the junior’s life/schedule isn’t given top priority. That’s part of the reason you get $200k+ right out of school despite knowing next to nothing.

I’ve worked in Big Law long enough to know the interpersonal dynamics aren’t as hierarchical as OP would like. If a partner sees a mid-level or senior associate regularly leaving at 5, he or she will have one more reason to elevate other senior associates within the firm and give assignments to more junior associates. Others will be hungrier than OP for assignments and promotions.

OP is already sealing her fate by not having hired a nanny or secured her spouse’s agreement to handle more child care. She is just grousing here because it turns out her unilateral decision to adjust her schedule and the schedule of her co-workers isn’t being met with acclaim. That isn’t how Big Law works.

She should just get a 9-5 job like most working parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is the best real life version of dismembering the whole “you can have it all”, “lean in”, and female empowerment as the new buzzword that I have ever seen.

Fascinating read of women who breeze through any nurturing urges, heartstrings pulled at just being with their babies, ignoring the biological needs of a baby and it’s mother that is seen in all forms of nature, with humans the only ones actively breaking that bond.

Such an interesting read

Whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself babe

[Anonymous]

As a client, I find it helpful when lawyers communicate to me what their schedule patterns are or when they might be getting back to me. Like, I worked with a male partner who didn’t tend to work much past five pm or so, but he liked to wake up really early in the morning. So if I sent him a markup at four or five, or if we had a call at four or five and he said he would send me something, I knew I probably wouldn’t hear back from him that night, but I would hear back in the morning. I like to know an estimate for when I might hear back, because then I am not sitting around checking my phone. I’d rather know, ok, I can go off and do something else, because I’m not hearing from him today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had two babies in big law because I was determined to squeeze to maternity leaves out. But I knew after the first I couldn’t carry on like that. I started working my network and let clients know I was interested in in-house opportunities. I got an email during my second maternity leave and started the interview process. I went back for one week and gave notice.

Male partners see this so much and it reflects poorly on every female associate behind you.
But glad it worked out for you.

Not a damn thing male associates can do about it. Next female associate up!

What are you talking about? Not a single mention was made of male associates.

Male partners are well aware of the reality of many female associates jetting early. But they have to replace them with other female associates. Honestly, regardless of gender, 98 percent of these lawyers are fungible. Magna Cum Laude Katie from T14 and Magna Cum Laude Connor from T14 will be the same .... And why is that? Because law is easy.

Of course they don’t replace then with other female associates. They stick with the male associate who worked crazy long hours, didn’t fuss about childcare and didn’t leave after 2 three month long maternity leaves in 24 months (with low hours in between the mat leaves).

Uh...no...incoming associate classes are more and more female.

And rainmaker partner will pick the male over her because less chance the guy will take 6 months of maternity leave in 24 month’s time and unofficially with 80% when she is “working.”

That’s outdated thinking. Rainmaker partner has to consider the optics.

Let’s just agree to disagree on this point. Let me know how it works out for you.

Better than it will for any man in my cohort.

You poor girl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was in biglaw for 10 years but left before I had kids. I saw no one who was successful long term that had kids that didn’t have a spouse that either was a sah or cut way back on their own career. Since you don’t seem to want to stay long term and make partner, that doesn’t need to mean that you can’t stay a few years more if you are willing to continuing working long hours.

You absolutely need a nanny, and you need to subscribe to a back up nanny service for the rare times when your nanny is sick if you don’t have families or friends in the area, or the ability to cover yourself. Not only will the nanny rid you having to do drop offs and pick ups, they can do light housekeeping that will help free up the time when you are home from the more mundane tasks like laundry or groceries. Ideally, hire someone who can cook. I could not have continued to work as an attorney, even outside of big law , with a spouse with a demanding job, without a nanny.

I don’t think it is true that babyhood is the hardest part, it gets harder when your kids have homework and activities in the evening although you I’ll be sleeping better. It is true that your kid will not remember these early years, but you will. Plan your next career moves to give you the family life you want, because kids grow up really fast, and there is no turning back the clock.

DP. I promise I'm not picking on PP, even though what I am about say will sound like I am.

I agree with this PP and the many others who have advised outsourcing as a way to make it through BigLaw or another BigCareer. A prerequisite for that, though, is that you are ok not doing the things that you are outsourcing. I can throw money at problems with the best of them. I wasn't willing, however, to have someone else (including my husband) do so many of the things that I see as part of being a parent. I want to see my kids at the end of the school day, be active at their school, make and eat dinner with them, get them to practices and activities, know their friends and teammates and their families. That means not being in the office (or working feverishly out of the office) all the time. Some working moms may hate all of those tasks and/or be willing to have nannies or au pairs or grandparents or other parents take on those roles. But if you, like me, are not happy with that approach, even outsourcing won't help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.

A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.

I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.

IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.

Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.

The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.

There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.

At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.

The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.

You didn’t really respond to the reasons I gave why it isn’t that big of deal.

As for the partner, the partner isn’t going to be that upset of emails after 7. The partner probably sends such emails himself. Nor is the partner going to want to wade in unless it really reaches an unacceptable level. The senior associate is more valuable to the partner than a junior. At the end of the day, shit flows downhill and the junior’s life/schedule isn’t given top priority. That’s part of the reason you get $200k+ right out of school despite knowing next to nothing.

I’ve worked in Big Law long enough to know the interpersonal dynamics aren’t as hierarchical as OP would like. If a partner sees a mid-level or senior associate regularly leaving at 5, he or she will have one more reason to elevate other senior associates within the firm and give assignments to more junior associates. Others will be hungrier than OP for assignments and promotions.

OP is already sealing her fate by not having hired a nanny or secured her spouse’s agreement to handle more child care. She is just grousing here because it turns out her unilateral decision to adjust her schedule and the schedule of her co-workers isn’t being met with acclaim. That isn’t how Big Law works.

She should just get a 9-5 job like most working parents.

OP. I mean, I wish this would happen. But I'm still getting enough work from clients and partners to put in ~12 hours/day despite my schedule not being met with acclaim by juniors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Move to a lower cost of living city.

Ideas:
Cincinnati
Omaha
Tucson
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Fargo

Okay, you got me: some things are worse than biglaw. -OP

Wow, OP. You had my sympathy until now. If you really feel this way, then yea -- your suffering is on you.

Right?? Like what’s so horrible about Minneapolis? Or Omaha? There are other nice places besides DC, places where you can-gasp-afford a home, pay off loans, take a vacation, have a career, and still see your children.

And fly back to DC for the museums and “great parks” whenever you want.

Good point. I have spent more time visiting museums in DC since moving away (though still at Biglaw) than I did in many years living there. Even in Biglaw, living outside DC/NY/SF provides more time and freedom to have a life. Not on point for OP's questions though. My two cents is that outsourcing really does make a big difference. It sounds like your husband is at least pulling his weight. Even if au pairs/nannies/cleaners aren't a panacea, it certainly reduces friction and makes it easier. I follow pretty much your same schedule, and it gets easier after the first couple years. Just get help, take the time you need for yourself, keep your head down, and you'll be fine. And be happy you have a sleeping baby. One of ours wasn't, and that was not a fun year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Move to a lower cost of living city.

Ideas:
Cincinnati
Omaha
Tucson
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Fargo

Okay, you got me: some things are worse than biglaw. -OP

I agree with OP... those are all great places if you are white or enjoy extreme weather ....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Move to a lower cost of living city.

Ideas:
Cincinnati
Omaha
Tucson
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Fargo

Okay, you got me: some things are worse than biglaw. -OP

I agree with OP... those are all great places if you are white or enjoy extreme weather ....

I don’t know about those other cities but the legal market in Tucson is close to non-existent and does not pay well. (Plus the law firms are not close to the good school districts making a lousy commute.). But I don’t think its fair to say it’s only a great place if you are white. There are lots of Latinos, Asians and Native Americans in Tucson. Not many African-Americans outside the military base, but that also means it doesn’t have the historical baggage associated with the racial divide in many Eastern and Southern cities. Sorry to digress from the topic but people on this board slam on cities all the time without knowing anything about their culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Move to a lower cost of living city.

Ideas:
Cincinnati
Omaha
Tucson
Minneapolis
Des Moines
Fargo

Okay, you got me: some things are worse than biglaw. -OP

I agree with OP... those are all great places if you are white or enjoy extreme weather ....

Tucson is 42 percent latino. Cincinnati is 44 percent black. Minneapolis is 20 percent black. Even Des Moines is about as diverse racially as the national average.

What an ignorant post.