Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.

[Anonymous]

Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to quit. There’s no other option. Take the steps to create a light at the end of the tunnel - basically give yourself a deadline and work toward it. Life is too short and big law isn’t going to change anytime soon. Clients pay a huge premium to obtain immediate service and partners won’t tolerate anything less.

I’m on the other side of a decade in big law and I haven’t regretted my exit for a second. There are humane lawyers out there doing interesting work.

Yep. Everyone I know who started in Biglaw has quit or is a man.

Everyone I know in big law at the partner level (since most others bailed before then) have SAH spouses. Interestingly enough it's 2 men and 2 women. I can see how it's basically necessary since you are giving your spouse 2 options, SAH or work and then do all the 2nd shift by themselves

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to quit. There’s no other option. Take the steps to create a light at the end of the tunnel - basically give yourself a deadline and work toward it. Life is too short and big law isn’t going to change anytime soon. Clients pay a huge premium to obtain immediate service and partners won’t tolerate anything less.

I’m on the other side of a decade in big law and I haven’t regretted my exit for a second. There are humane lawyers out there doing interesting work.

Yep. Everyone I know who started in Biglaw has quit or is a man.

Everyone I know in big law at the partner level (since most others bailed before then) have SAH spouses. Interestingly enough it's 2 men and 2 women. I can see how it's basically necessary since you are giving your spouse 2 options, SAH or work and then do all the 2nd shift by themselves

At the two firms DH and I experienced, partners either had SAH or very part time + nanny spouses (male or female), a home staff (as in drivers, chefs, nannies, housekeepers) who did everything for the kids (who eventually went to boarding school), or were in divorce situations where the ex had custody and their own time with the kids was set on paper but haphazard in reality because they had to cancel a lot or just brought the kids to the office on a Saturday to play in the halls while they worked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Ugh this is a common misconception and rarely true.

I never bill a single moment I don’t need to. When I work all night (a few times a year) it’s because there was work that only I could do. As in, prepping for oral argument and only two lawyers are going to court, me and someone else. Or finalizing my brief for filing. Or getting ready for a mediation. These are times when I am the gatekeeper on the work (I am the one who knows the law and the facts and will be reasonable for the outcome) so I can’t just split the work with someone else and do it faster.

It’s also not consistent. I work 90-100 hours some weeks and 10 some others. And there’s not really anything I can do about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to quit. There’s no other option. Take the steps to create a light at the end of the tunnel - basically give yourself a deadline and work toward it. Life is too short and big law isn’t going to change anytime soon. Clients pay a huge premium to obtain immediate service and partners won’t tolerate anything less.

I’m on the other side of a decade in big law and I haven’t regretted my exit for a second. There are humane lawyers out there doing interesting work.

Yep. Everyone I know who started in Biglaw has quit or is a man.

Everyone I know in big law at the partner level (since most others bailed before then) have SAH spouses. Interestingly enough it's 2 men and 2 women. I can see how it's basically necessary since you are giving your spouse 2 options, SAH or work and then do all the 2nd shift by themselves

At the two firms DH and I experienced, partners either had SAH or very part time + nanny spouses (male or female), a home staff (as in drivers, chefs, nannies, housekeepers) who did everything for the kids (who eventually went to boarding school), or were in divorce situations where the ex had custody and their own time with the kids was set on paper but haphazard in reality because they had to cancel a lot or just brought the kids to the office on a Saturday to play in the halls while they worked.

Wild. I have never known a partner with a driver or chef or who sent their kids to boarding school and I’ve known a hundred or so partners well enough to know they didn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You have to quit. There’s no other option. Take the steps to create a light at the end of the tunnel - basically give yourself a deadline and work toward it. Life is too short and big law isn’t going to change anytime soon. Clients pay a huge premium to obtain immediate service and partners won’t tolerate anything less.

I’m on the other side of a decade in big law and I haven’t regretted my exit for a second. There are humane lawyers out there doing interesting work.

Yep. Everyone I know who started in Biglaw has quit or is a man.

Everyone I know in big law at the partner level (since most others bailed before then) have SAH spouses. Interestingly enough it's 2 men and 2 women. I can see how it's basically necessary since you are giving your spouse 2 options, SAH or work and then do all the 2nd shift by themselves

At the two firms DH and I experienced, partners either had SAH or very part time + nanny spouses (male or female), a home staff (as in drivers, chefs, nannies, housekeepers) who did everything for the kids (who eventually went to boarding school), or were in divorce situations where the ex had custody and their own time with the kids was set on paper but haphazard in reality because they had to cancel a lot or just brought the kids to the office on a Saturday to play in the halls while they worked.

Wild. I have never known a partner with a driver or chef or who sent their kids to boarding school and I’ve known a hundred or so partners well enough to know they didn’t.

I'm thinking of one family in particular, and both spouses were high volume partners. But I do know three others with the same set up. Only one in DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Piggybacking on PP..how can the quality of work be good at 4am with no sleep?

Conditioning, like pulling all nighters in college. Also, when this is happening, it is because there is not other option: do or die moments in someone's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

This, plus when clients are paying biglaw rates they expect the work to be utterly perfect so you spend extra time on getting the perfect case or drafting the most amazing brief ever rather than an adequate one. Which isn’t a bad goal, but it takes much more time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

This has been my experience as well. Also, a lot of the client questions require pretty in-depth analysis of applicable statutes, regulations, and interpretative guidance. I think clients expect the answer to be an easy “yes” or “no” when they ask if they can do something and the answer is more often “maybe and here is a risk assessment.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

This has been my experience as well. Also, a lot of the client questions require pretty in-depth analysis of applicable statutes, regulations, and interpretative guidance. I think clients expect the answer to be an easy “yes” or “no” when they ask if they can do something and the answer is more often “maybe and here is a risk assessment.”

My DH is big law senior counsel and its insane how much work he does. He typically bills 2100 billable hours, plus pro-bono and business development. I think all in last year he did 3000 hours. We have two young kids and another on the way. He does government contracts litigation and writes A LOT. I have never seen another job where you sit on your computer all day and just write non stop. He is also very tedious about his writing (I guess all lawyers are) and will re-read an email before he sends it out to make sure it is grammatically correct and doesn't have any typos. I just shoot emails off left and right and rarely re-read them.

His hours vary but typically he works from 7am-7pm, comes home to have dinner and say goodnight to the kids and then most of the time logs back in for another hour or two unless there is something super pressing then he works until who knows when. This morning he was up at 4:45 so he could get into the office and get some writing done before other people got in and started bugging him. When he is working on a protest deadline the turn around is super quick so he usually does 16+ hour days to get things written and reviewed prior to sending it to the client for their input.

We don't have a nanny or housekeeper and I work full time but I work from home and have a super flexible job so I take care of the kid stuff and household stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let me ask a question and, since this is an anonymous board, am hoping lawyers here will be candid.

Simple question, asked in earnest: Why do BigLaw lawyers have to work so much? Why does the work take so long?

Or is the amount of time spent working (e.g., people working circa 60-65 hours a week, week in, week out) usually a reflection that you can bill it -- e.g. "If I work 12 hours a day, or can credibly bill it, I/we get paid for it and the money's good." That is, the amount of work expands to fill up what the clients' tolerance for billing amount is. If that's the answer, or an answer, there's nothing wrong with that and it would explain a lot. In place like D.C., people spend a lot of legal services. Supply meets demand, etc.

But, still, what takes so long? Know a couple of lawyers (not kids either) and they'll groan something like "I worked from 9 am til 4 am the next day" and I feel like saying doing what? What could possibly take so long?

Please explain. Thank you!

Usually it is the volume of work needed and the short deadlines. Judges demand a novel issue to be briefed by the next morning when we already had a full slate of trial prep on the schedule; clients call and say "hey, we're doing a mass lay off tomorrow, can you assess the risk?" or "Just found out a low level manager forgot to forward this compliance letter up the chain and the deadline to respond has passed ...." or "We've had a cave in one of our mines ..." or "our CEO was just arrested in a brothel in Thailand." Meanwhile, the pile of normal work with less solid deadlines piles up on hold.

In other words, in many practice areas, people don't call the outside counsel until they have a crisis on their hands. So we jump from one client crisis to the other day after day after day, and you never know what tomorrow will bring. It is exciting, but not conducive to a lovely family routine and stress-free evenings with the kids.

This has been my experience as well. Also, a lot of the client questions require pretty in-depth analysis of applicable statutes, regulations, and interpretative guidance. I think clients expect the answer to be an easy “yes” or “no” when they ask if they can do something and the answer is more often “maybe and here is a risk assessment.”

My DH is big law senior counsel and its insane how much work he does. He typically bills 2100 billable hours, plus pro-bono and business development. I think all in last year he did 3000 hours. We have two young kids and another on the way. He does government contracts litigation and writes A LOT. I have never seen another job where you sit on your computer all day and just write non stop. He is also very tedious about his writing (I guess all lawyers are) and will re-read an email before he sends it out to make sure it is grammatically correct and doesn't have any typos. I just shoot emails off left and right and rarely re-read them.

His hours vary but typically he works from 7am-7pm, comes home to have dinner and say goodnight to the kids and then most of the time logs back in for another hour or two unless there is something super pressing then he works until who knows when. This morning he was up at 4:45 so he could get into the office and get some writing done before other people got in and started bugging him. When he is working on a protest deadline the turn around is super quick so he usually does 16+ hour days to get things written and reviewed prior to sending it to the client for their input.

We don't have a nanny or housekeeper and I work full time but I work from home and have a super flexible job so I take care of the kid stuff and household stuff.

Why would you have a third child with this man? What is wrong with you?

[Anonymous]

So basically the answer is: BigLaw firms don't hire enough people. If they hired more people, everyone could work fewer hours. But then salaries would be lower too. They'd rather keep the $$$$ and miss out on time with their families. Makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So basically the answer is: BigLaw firms don't hire enough people. If they hired more people, everyone could work fewer hours. But then salaries would be lower too. They'd rather keep the $$$$ and miss out on time with their families. Makes sense.

This is really not true. I thought this when I was a junior but now I know it’s not. I’m slow sometimes and slammed other times but another person couldn’t fix it when I’m slammed because I am the bottle neck.