PSA: Please do not host a Christian seder

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moreover: We’ve been celebrating Passover since before Jesus.

The modern Passover Seder started in rabbinical Judaism, after the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE.

But it’s never been secular.

So, atheist Jews who celebrate as a cultural tradition don’t count?

I’m not sure that you understand what being an atheist Jew is.

But more broadly, the history of Passover is nothing like the history of the Christmas Tree, and comparing the two is really ignorant. With one, you’re talking about a secular origin story, and with the other, you’re talking about a sacred history, and some less religious adherents of an ethno-religious group celebrating it. Very different.

The Christmas tree was an example of a Christian religious symbol that Jews (and other groups) have tweaked and applied to their own celebrations. It was an imperfect analogy.

However, the main point is that Passover is in the actual Christian Bible — the holy book shared by all the many denominations of Christianity. The word Passover, the unleavened bread, the exodus—all of it—is in the Bible. Trying to frame it’s place in Christian tradition as appropriation or “not Passover” is not okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moreover: We’ve been celebrating Passover since before Jesus.

The modern Passover Seder started in rabbinical Judaism, after the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 CE.

But it’s never been secular.

So, atheist Jews who celebrate as a cultural tradition don’t count?

I’m not sure that you understand what being an atheist Jew is.

But more broadly, the history of Passover is nothing like the history of the Christmas Tree, and comparing the two is really ignorant. With one, you’re talking about a secular origin story, and with the other, you’re talking about a sacred history, and some less religious adherents of an ethno-religious group celebrating it. Very different.

The Christmas tree was an example of a Christian religious symbol that Jews (and other groups) have tweaked and applied to their own celebrations. It was an imperfect analogy.

However, the main point is that Passover is in the actual Christian Bible — the holy book shared by all the many denominations of Christianity. The word Passover, the unleavened bread, the exodus—all of it—is in the Bible. Trying to frame it’s place in Christian tradition as appropriation or “not Passover” is not okay.

Passover is a Jewish holiday—it always has been. Even when Jesus was alive, it was a Jewish holiday. If you want to acknowledge the Last Supper, go ahead, but please don’t do so with a Seder that has symbolism that is about our people.

That has been our only ask throughout this entire thread.

[Anonymous]

Oh and the Christmas tree was a pagan symbol adopted by Christians.

Not sure what it has to do with the birth of Jesus.

[Anonymous]

“That said, the Jewish holiday of Passover has nothing to do with Jesus. None whatsoever.”

For Christians, Passover has a lot to do with Jesus. The blood of the lambs put on doorframes during Passover is the antecedent to Jesus’ blood shed on the cross. He becomes (for Christians) the final sacrificial lamb.

I understand that (most) Jews don’t believe Jesus is “The Lamb of God,” but Christians believe that he is. For Christians, Passover is symbolic and prophetic.

“Get rid of the old leaven, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.” 1 Corinthians 5:7

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

“That said, the Jewish holiday of Passover has nothing to do with Jesus. None whatsoever.”

For Christians, Passover has a lot to do with Jesus. The blood of the lambs put on doorframes during Passover is the antecedent to Jesus’ blood shed on the cross. He becomes (for Christians) the final sacrificial lamb.

I understand that (most) Jews don’t believe Jesus is “The Lamb of God,” but Christians believe that he is. For Christians, Passover is symbolic and prophetic.

“Get rid of the old leaven, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.” 1 Corinthians 5:7

But what Jesus was doing—if he indeed participated in Passover, which is debatable, as opposed to broader Jewish feasts—was celebrating a Jewish feast and rituals, as it was done at the Second Temple.

You’re infusing different meaning into it than what existed at the time, which is fine, but that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to adopt our Seder, with its rabbinical Judaic traditions (which were solidified after the destruction of the Second Temple, so between 70 and 500-600 CE), to acknowledge a pre-rabbinical lamb sacrifice.

[Anonymous]

Oh and *no* Jews believe Jesus was the lamb of God. Not most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can’t stop you from doing it, but it would be empathetic for you to understand why it’s offensive.

I’m a very empathetic person. I genuinely do not see how it’s offensive.

Multiple people have posted articles explaining this. Have you read them?

Yes, I have read them and I’m truly baffled. I am not offended by other people’s religious practices and find it hard to understand how others are. I am offended that someone would tell me how I can or can’t celebrate something I believe in the privacy of my home. I do not have a Passover Seder in my home, but I don’t think it’s anyone’s business if I chose to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh and *no* Jews believe Jesus was the lamb of God. Not most.
[/quot

Sure they do. They are called Messianic Christians. My husband and daughter are Messianic Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can’t stop you from doing it, but it would be empathetic for you to understand why it’s offensive.

I’m a very empathetic person. I genuinely do not see how it’s offensive.

Multiple people have posted articles explaining this. Have you read them?

Yes, I have read them and I’m truly baffled. I am not offended by other people’s religious practices and find it hard to understand how others are. I am offended that someone would tell me how I can or can’t celebrate something I believe in the privacy of my home. I do not have a Passover Seder in my home, but I don’t think it’s anyone’s business if I chose to.

No one can force you to be respectful of other people’s traditions. No one can force you to understand why rabbinical Passover Seder traditions have nothing to do with Jesus’s acknowledgment of Passover/a Jewish feast in pre-rabbinical times. No one can force you to understand why doing so involves erasure of Jewish traditions that were solidified when Jews became a diaspora religion (something we’ve dealt with in the ensuing nearly 2000 years since). No one can force you to understand how sacred those traditions are, especially given the fact that we had to keep those traditions under extreme duress, including in ghettos, during the Crusades, during the Holocaust, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and *no* Jews believe Jesus was the lamb of God. Not most.
[/quot

Sure they do. They are called Messianic Christians. My husband and daughter are Messianic Christians.

Messianic Christians aren’t Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“A Christian Seder absolutely involves inserting Jesus into Jewish traditions. That’s the entire reason it’s offensive.”

All of Christianity is about inserting Jesus into Jewish traditions. He was a Jew. Just because you find it offensive doesn’t mean others cannot practice their religion however they choose to.

Yes you CAN. But should you? Do you care about being a good ecumenical friend?

It's cultural appropriation 100%.

To be blunt, Christians took our holy books (the Tanak) and called it the "Old Testament." They grabbed what they wanted -- the Ten Commandments -- and discarded what they didn't want -- circumcision for example. And then they persecuted us for centuries for practicing our religion, so that many Jews had to convert to survive, or practice in secret.

If you want to show solidarity with Jews, celebrate Passover WITH Jews. Don't take this very important holiday and turn into a Christian event. It's not. Jesus wasn't at a seder.

1) It seems to me that “being a good ecumenical friend” means respecting others and their traditions/beliefs.
2) Jesus was a Jew, as were most early Christians. The entire Christian New Testament appropriated Jewish writings and traditions.
4) Early Christians (many of whom were Jewish) were also persecuted and practiced in secret. Jesus’ early followers were tortured and killed (crucified, beheaded, etc.). Many Christians are persecuted and killed even today around the world. Persecution of Jews wrong and evil.
5) I have attended Seder dinners at friends’ homes
and feel a deep sense of reverence for Jewish traditions and history. I don’t personally
celebrate Easter with a Seder, but if others do it seems that it would be because it informs or enhances their faith and doing so wouldn’t diminish yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“A Christian Seder absolutely involves inserting Jesus into Jewish traditions. That’s the entire reason it’s offensive.”

All of Christianity is about inserting Jesus into Jewish traditions. He was a Jew. Just because you find it offensive doesn’t mean others cannot practice their religion however they choose to.

Yes you CAN. But should you? Do you care about being a good ecumenical friend?

It's cultural appropriation 100%.

To be blunt, Christians took our holy books (the Tanak) and called it the "Old Testament." They grabbed what they wanted -- the Ten Commandments -- and discarded what they didn't want -- circumcision for example. And then they persecuted us for centuries for practicing our religion, so that many Jews had to convert to survive, or practice in secret.

If you want to show solidarity with Jews, celebrate Passover WITH Jews. Don't take this very important holiday and turn into a Christian event. It's not. Jesus wasn't at a seder.

1) It seems to me that “being a good ecumenical friend” means respecting others and their traditions/beliefs.
2) Jesus was a Jew, as were most early Christians. The entire Christian New Testament appropriated Jewish writings and traditions.
4) Early Christians (many of whom were Jewish) were also persecuted and practiced in secret. Jesus’ early followers were tortured and killed (crucified, beheaded, etc.). Many Christians are persecuted and killed even today around the world. Persecution of Jews wrong and evil.
5) I have attended Seder dinners at friends’ homes
and feel a deep sense of reverence for Jewish traditions and history. I don’t personally
celebrate Easter with a Seder, but if others do it seems that it would be because it informs or enhances their faith and doing so wouldn’t diminish yours.

Bringing Christian persecution into this thread shows you are centering yourself and are not open to understanding.

Easter and the rabbinical Passover Seder have nothing to do with each other. People have explained this many times. Jesus lived in pre-rabbinical times and engaged in animal sacrifices at the Second Temple. That’s what the Last Supper was. It looked nothing like our Seders. So please don’t twist our Seder traditions, which originate in 70-500/600 CE and make them out to be about Jesus.

[Anonymous]

Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

I mean, there’s plenty that Christians embrace that are totally antithetical to what Jews believe.

Judaism isn’t some primitive version of Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oops! Forgot to include #3 - not sure what you meant by Christians discarding the Tanakh except for the Ten Commandments. I don’t believe this is true, although there are laws, etc. that modern Jews and Christians don’t follow.

I mean, there’s plenty that Christians embrace that are totally antithetical to what Jews believe.

Judaism isn’t some primitive version of Christianity.

Of course not; I wasn’t suggesting it is.