"The Dating Cultural Norm That's Making Everyone Unhappy"

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

Disaster for whom? Just the women? I don’t think so because on the flip side, there’s millions of men who are deemed subpar and end up alone too. They’re not all going to get mail order brides as a solution because that leads to problems.

This stalemate is most disastrous for society as a whole and will lead to plummeting birth rates and population collapse. Using scare tactics on women (“you’ll end up alone! You’re going to be a childless cat lady!”) isn’t persuading anyone.

PP you quoted. I agree! It's a disaster for men and society as well, not just the women.

I guess the issue is that women are driving this stalemate, not men. They are the ones that are basically choosing to remain single unless they can get a man that is out of their league. You could flip it around and say that maybe men need to be better or more feminist or what have you, but men are not going to overnight acquire more college degrees, double their incomes, or become more attractive (though they could and should work out more and eat better). But women *could* overnight accept that they cannot find someone who checks all their boxes and be willing to entertain someone who checks 70% of their boxes.

Women are not seeking anyone out of their league. Generally couples match by attraction level. If a fit person wants to sleep with other fit people it’s not “wanting to date out of your league”.

Wrong. I don’t understand why women cannot grasp this concept. BY DEFINITION, the very fact that women perceive that there are “so few eligible bachelors” who check all of their boxes means that these men are out of the league of most women, unless you are advocating for polygamy and for each of these men to marry five women. (Ironically, we now have de facto polygamy for these desirable men—except that they sleep with five women and marry none of them.)

You’re also wrong about a fit woman and a fit man necessarily being in the same league. As everyone knows, men disproportionately value looks in a partner and women disproportionately value the ability to provide financially. Therefore, it’s very possible for a schlubby man with a good income to be in the same league as a fit woman. However, women now view the income as a baseline requirement and expect that the man should be fit on top of that.

Moreover, the fit, high-earning man may still not be a suitable partner if his high income comes from a plumbing business and not from an endeavor with the cultural pedigree that would appeal to a college-educated woman. After all, intellectual stimulation, common culture and shared values are all important.

And on and on and on it goes. I think it’s clear as day that while the current situation harms both men and women, women have largely created this mess.

You are thinking in terms of some weird leagues, scores etc. As if women would pick fat higher earners over fit average earners all the time just for the money alone. This is simply not true. No matter what you think about a fat doctor being in same league with fit woman, it wouldn’t force her to have sex with him. And if she’s in need and forces herself into it, the relationship will be an unhappy one. Real life couples by at large match by looks, incomes etc.

So yes, women select solitude while they are in search (if they can afford a decent standard of living on their own). It’s a happier place than being with a fat doctor or nagging ex-husband.

You’re making PP’s point. If women’s standards are rising as society becomes more egalitarian then women are chasing and increasingly smaller percentage of men.

Take the PP above who says she earns a lot and is willing to date down to a $150,000 earning male (but below that is an incompatible lifestyle).

If you search all men and set the filters as follows:

At least 5 foot 8 inches tall
Under 42
Not obese
Not married
Open to having kids
Doesn’t smoke

You’re talking about 0.52% of all men in the USA (exclude divorced and/or already has kids and that percentage drops). That means a lot of single women are going to be left without a chair when the music stops.

Ok and? It looks like many women are fine with being single and left without a chair, as they are increasingly able to financially support themselves, unlike the past. Who is most bothered by this? I’m thinking men, because they’re unable to be alone indefinitely, and people like you. Why is that?

Do you think men are having difficulty finding partners? The article isn’t about wealthy men having difficulty finding partners. It’s about women. It isn’t a competition. Most wealthy men don’t even have wealthy women on their radar.

Yes, as we move closer to an equal society where women have greater job opportunities and less children hindering their careers, men will have difficulty finding partners. MC and LMC men are already experiencing this. Increasing numbers of women are also fine with being single forever, so all the hand wringing about it is unwarranted.

A lot of young men nowadays are failure to launch. My friend has a 21 year old son that flunked out of community college and got fired from Walmart for regularly being late and comes to me whining that girls don’t want to date him and he doesn’t leave the house. Go on the Adult children section and you will see a bunch of people talking about their failure to launch boys. A young woman who has done all of the right things she was told to do will not settle with any guy just so she can say she has a husband. Honestly it sounds like a punishment.

Boys are failing to launch because masculinity is punished at every chance. The fact that universities have more women than men is a huge civilizational failure.

y

You would rather say there is a civilization failure rather than acknowledge parents coddle boys who don’t learn to buckle down and do better for themselves.

+10000

Lazy parents aren’t teaching their kids basic skills and responsibilities.

Half of American children are BMW overnight or obese so they’re also feeding them crap juices, fried food, fast food, processed snacks. Sad.

This seems to be an American problem specifically. The sons in immigrant families seem to be working and getting into college just fine.

Majority of Hispanic immigrants’ kids are obese.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

Must be my adhd husband’s twin sister!

Welcome to the Dumped On Working Spouses Club!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God I'd love it if my wife out earned me. I'd homemake so effin hard. I like cooking. I like woodworking and having the time to fix things. Work out and ride my motorocycle and do all the kids related things. Is sitting in front of a plastic box having teams meetings all day making me feel like a MAN anyway? lol

My DH got laid off during covid and it was seriously the best our lives have been lol. He was so dedicated to cooking, cleaning, shopping, fixing things, taking the dogs to the park, working out, etc. He still wishes he could be a "man of leisure" now.

Cool! Good for him and you guys!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God I'd love it if my wife out earned me. I'd homemake so effin hard. I like cooking. I like woodworking and having the time to fix things. Work out and ride my motorocycle and do all the kids related things. Is sitting in front of a plastic box having teams meetings all day making me feel like a MAN anyway? lol

My DH got laid off during covid and it was seriously the best our lives have been lol. He was so dedicated to cooking, cleaning, shopping, fixing things, taking the dogs to the park, working out, etc. He still wishes he could be a "man of leisure" now.

My dentist friend's very intelligent workaholic husband was unemployed for 1.5 years, he took over household and parental responsibilities and executed everything with so much efficacy that everyone cried when he was rehired.

Not gonna lie, I was pretty sad my DH got a new job after a few months. I don't think homemaking is a gendered thing, a lot of men just think it's beneath them because it's "women's work".

My surgeon husband would make an amazing homemaker. Many of my friends have domestic husbands. All the husbands are highly competent. If you are a smart and successful man who once lived alone as an adult, he can handle house and kids.

If no untreated mental disorders and decent multi tasking skills, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God I'd love it if my wife out earned me. I'd homemake so effin hard. I like cooking. I like woodworking and having the time to fix things. Work out and ride my motorocycle and do all the kids related things. Is sitting in front of a plastic box having teams meetings all day making me feel like a MAN anyway? lol

My DH got laid off during covid and it was seriously the best our lives have been lol. He was so dedicated to cooking, cleaning, shopping, fixing things, taking the dogs to the park, working out, etc. He still wishes he could be a "man of leisure" now.

My dentist friend's very intelligent workaholic husband was unemployed for 1.5 years, he took over household and parental responsibilities and executed everything with so much efficacy that everyone cried when he was rehired.

Not gonna lie, I was pretty sad my DH got a new job after a few months. I don't think homemaking is a gendered thing, a lot of men just think it's beneath them because it's "women's work".

Be honest: unless you're a trust fund baby, you wouldn't consider marrying a man who aspired to be a house husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

Must be my adhd husband’s twin sister!

Welcome to the Dumped On Working Spouses Club!

Unacknowledged ADHD is a marriage killer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

Must be my adhd husband’s twin sister!

Welcome to the Dumped On Working Spouses Club!

Unacknowledged ADHD is a marriage killer.

Unacknowledged and/or unmanaged

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Desirable" women are expected to be beautiful, smart, kind, well spoken, well travelled, fit, great makeup and hair without looking like you have done your makeup and hair, "bounce back" after kids, etc etc. And men can't even... try to be better? To attract one of these women? C'mon now.

For generations men have not had to do anything to snag a wife, because she literally had no other choices. Now that they are still expected to do all of the above but have the choice to find a man who does the same, all of a sudden men are trivializing this to "women have too high of standards and will end up alone" GMAFB.

No man expects a woman to be well traveled. Indeed, it's often a red flag. "Great makeup and hair" are also absolutely not requirements. These are items where women compete with other women.

You're absolutely correct that men have to compete differently now because for the first time in western history, women have a lot of choices. Most importantly, women don't need a man and many women are choosing solitude over shacking up with a "lesser" man. It just goes to show that women did not like marriage and shows the Suffragettes were onto something a century ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Desirable" women are expected to be beautiful, smart, kind, well spoken, well travelled, fit, great makeup and hair without looking like you have done your makeup and hair, "bounce back" after kids, etc etc. And men can't even... try to be better? To attract one of these women? C'mon now.

For generations men have not had to do anything to snag a wife, because she literally had no other choices. Now that they are still expected to do all of the above but have the choice to find a man who does the same, all of a sudden men are trivializing this to "women have too high of standards and will end up alone" GMAFB.

No man expects a woman to be well traveled. Indeed, it's often a red flag. "Great makeup and hair" are also absolutely not requirements. These are items where women compete with other women.

You're absolutely correct that men have to compete differently now because for the first time in western history, women have a lot of choices. Most importantly, women don't need a man and many women are choosing solitude over shacking up with a "lesser" man. It just goes to show that women did not like marriage and shows the Suffragettes were onto something a century ago.

I get way more attention with my makeup and hair done. Most men don’t like colorful makeup but they like the natural stuff. It may not be a requirement for day to day life, but it definitely helps for first impressions.

[Anonymous]

I think women like men who are higher status, which often but not always translates into income. I make a ton of money and like when a guy makes more, but I can also see being with a guy who is e.g. in a prestigious govt appointment, or has a job requiring a very high level of intelligence that doesn't happen to pay as much, or who has a lower income but has made wise investments and has wealth/security. I doubt Heidi Cruz has any issues with being the breadwinner in her family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Great makeup and hair" are also absolutely not requirements. These are items where women compete with other women.

This is something very silly that men say. Men want a "beautiful" woman. Guess what, that usually means thick, full, long, wavy hair. Large, bright eyes. Full, plump, pink lips. Dark eyelashes. If a woman doesn't have those things naturally, great hair and makeup skills can make her appear that she does, and men perceive that as beautiful. Duh. What does PP think is the difference between "beauty" and "great hair and makeup"? Is PP thinking of like, a prom updo and sparkly blue eyeshadow?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Great makeup and hair" are also absolutely not requirements. These are items where women compete with other women.

This is something very silly that men say. Men want a "beautiful" woman. Guess what, that usually means thick, full, long, wavy hair. Large, bright eyes. Full, plump, pink lips. Dark eyelashes. If a woman doesn't have those things naturally, great hair and makeup skills can make her appear that she does, and men perceive that as beautiful. Duh. What does PP think is the difference between "beauty" and "great hair and makeup"? Is PP thinking of like, a prom updo and sparkly blue eyeshadow?

The super hot women are spending hundreds if not thousands on their looks, and the work might not even be obvious to most men. Nails, skincare, makeup, hair treatments/ coloring/ extensions, and hair products to maintain at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Great makeup and hair" are also absolutely not requirements. These are items where women compete with other women.

This is something very silly that men say. Men want a "beautiful" woman. Guess what, that usually means thick, full, long, wavy hair. Large, bright eyes. Full, plump, pink lips. Dark eyelashes. If a woman doesn't have those things naturally, great hair and makeup skills can make her appear that she does, and men perceive that as beautiful. Duh. What does PP think is the difference between "beauty" and "great hair and makeup"? Is PP thinking of like, a prom updo and sparkly blue eyeshadow?

Why fake it? If they aren’t attracted to you, why do you want to be him? How does that end? Are you banking on a sunk cost fallacy relationship?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think women like men who are higher status, which often but not always translates into income. I make a ton of money and like when a guy makes more, but I can also see being with a guy who is e.g. in a prestigious govt appointment, or has a job requiring a very high level of intelligence that doesn't happen to pay as much, or who has a lower income but has made wise investments and has wealth/security. I doubt Heidi Cruz has any issues with being the breadwinner in her family.

Another example is a BigLaw female partner married to a "famous" session guitarist. He doesn't make much money (maybe $50k total in a good year), but is known by every major rock group and plays on many of their studio albums. She has been to the Grammy's several times and has Dave Grohl or Eddie Veder or Flea or somebody staying at their house sometimes when they are in town.

It's a coolness factor that she could never create on her own. It's also making $50k working a total of maybe 45-60 days per year, so he is essentially the SAH parent as well. He is also busy playing with his local rock & jazz band which doesn't earn much of anything, but has a decent local following.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think women like men who are higher status, which often but not always translates into income. I make a ton of money and like when a guy makes more, but I can also see being with a guy who is e.g. in a prestigious govt appointment, or has a job requiring a very high level of intelligence that doesn't happen to pay as much, or who has a lower income but has made wise investments and has wealth/security. I doubt Heidi Cruz has any issues with being the breadwinner in her family.

Another example is a BigLaw female partner married to a "famous" session guitarist. He doesn't make much money (maybe $50k total in a good year), but is known by every major rock group and plays on many of their studio albums. She has been to the Grammy's several times and has Dave Grohl or Eddie Veder or Flea or somebody staying at their house sometimes when they are in town.

It's a coolness factor that she could never create on her own. It's also making $50k working a total of maybe 45-60 days per year, so he is essentially the SAH parent as well. He is also busy playing with his local rock & jazz band which doesn't earn much of anything, but has a decent local following.

I'm sorry that's still high status, even if it's not income related. Saying you are ok with a man who has a prestigious govt job or is a renowned guitarist is not a compromise just because he makes less than you.