Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This claim to the land is at least partially religion based, many Jews are well read, educated people. Religion is fake, right? it’s fictional. Surely, smart Jews don’t actually believe this nonsense? Atheist jews don’t but still claim Israel as their homeland? And anyone can convert to Judaism and immigrate and then claim Israel as their homeland? Make this make sense.

+100

From a previous post: All Jews trace their lineage back to Israel at some point in their history. It’s where the Old Testament, the basis of their whole religion, took place.

I don't think this specific reason alone was a valid justification for giving/allowing Jews back their "land" to create the state of Israel. But what's done is done. Again, that ship has sailed.

The bigger mistake was the UN not taking control of the situation -- no accountability of what Israel did in the following years. Another mistake was the UN maintaining control of Jerusalem.

Honestly....the UN had two bickering children back in 1947. They should have stepped up and ensured that their two kids learned (forcefully if need be) to play well together.

Another mistake was countries (looking at the US here mainly) continuing through the decades in taking the side of Israel during all conflicts without questioning it.

“The old will die and the young will forget.” The mantra of the founder of Israel, David Ben-Gurion

This was true about Palestinian refugees and will become true about Gaza and the West Bank after that and then greater Israel.

That quote is fake, according to the Electronic Intifada https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/old-will-die-and-young-will-forget-did-ben-gurion-say-it

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

Hannibal directive is a thing in the IDF.

Exactly, when a government has a defined protocol to kill its own people that involved apache helicopters and tanks, maybe one should reconsider how expendable their own citizens are.

The whole point of that directive is to avoid the prospect of Israeli soldiers being taken hostage, because up until this government, the country has been willing to make almost any deal to free hostages. How would it make sense for them to deliberately kill or allow Israeli civilians and soldiers to be killed but also let several hundred people be taken captive? And, again, why would Netanyahu, who everyone agrees is a morally bankrupt monster, need to have a pretext to invade Gaza?

Why does he have to be an evil mastermind, when it seems fairly obvious that he’s actually an evil moron?

If you think Netanyahu is a moron, then you haven't studied anything about his life or who he is. He is one of the smartest politicians alive. He was an officer in the elite Sayeret Matkal unit of the IDF, the Israeli equivalent of the American Delta forces. He went to MIT - where he earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees. He is the behind the Clean Break Policy and Fighting terrorism book in 1995 where he created the playbook for regime change in Iraq and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and finishing off with Iran. Benjamin Netanyahu has so far been successful to engage the United States in six wars.

You don't need to be a military strategist to figure it out his plan.
1. Prop up and fund a militant Palestinian group to create political opposition to the PLO
2. Lay siege and enclose 2+ million in the largest open air prison while controlling their water, electricity, fuel and anything that enters
3. Create oppressive conditions while periodically "mowing the lawn" and committing war crimes like using white phosphorus
4. Suppress any form of non-violent protest with force
5. Population will eventually respond violently
6. Deliberately ignore intelligence, make army respond slowly to allow the sacrifice Israelis on October 7 while maximizing casualties via the Hannibal directive
7. Manufacture consent by propagating fake stories like beheaded babies, fetus being ripped out, mass rape, etc.
8. Enter Gaza under the guise of eliminating Hamas/securing hostages but with the real purpose of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

And if you think "6" is not believable, and that countries like the US or Israel would not sacrifice their citizens or their allies for false pretenses or political gain, then that is an incredibly naive view. I will refer you to couple examples that you can start looking into:
• Operation Northwoods (JFK vetoed it)
• USS Liberty/Operation Cyanide (LBJ and Israel cooperated to do this)
• London Israeli Embassy bombing
• Lavon Affair
• Tel Aviv bus bombing (another false flag, Israelis arrested)
• Or you can even just look as recently as the Iraq War where American soldiers died for the sake of regime change

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

Netanyahu didn’t make Hamas perpetrate, but he didn’t stop it either.

It makes all the sense in the world when you contextualize pre 10/7 Israel which is literally fighting all summer between seculars and religious Jews /Bibi supporters. Netanyahu pretty
Much put the David dukes of Israel in his cabinet. The guys who proudly bragged about their friend killing the former leftist prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. The Israeli left wing was furious when Bibi tried to overtake their Supreme Court to avoid trial. It’s like if 9/11 happened during the Lewinsky case. We would obviously no longer talk about Lewinsky and support the president if 9/11 happened in 1998. This is what happened in Israel. Israel is a fortress. You can’t scale that wall if you tried. They have sealed borders and military everywhere you look . That weekend, military was removed and Hamas was allowed to scale that wall and push through to Israel without facing any military pushback/ interference

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

Hannibal directive is a thing in the IDF.

Exactly, when a government has a defined protocol to kill its own people that involved apache helicopters and tanks, maybe one should reconsider how expendable their own citizens are.

The whole point of that directive is to avoid the prospect of Israeli soldiers being taken hostage, because up until this government, the country has been willing to make almost any deal to free hostages. How would it make sense for them to deliberately kill or allow Israeli civilians and soldiers to be killed but also let several hundred people be taken captive? And, again, why would Netanyahu, who everyone agrees is a morally bankrupt monster, need to have a pretext to invade Gaza?

Why does he have to be an evil mastermind, when it seems fairly obvious that he’s actually an evil moron?

If you think Netanyahu is a moron, then you haven't studied anything about his life or who he is. He is one of the smartest politicians alive. He was an officer in the elite Sayeret Matkal unit of the IDF, the Israeli equivalent of the American Delta forces. He went to MIT - where he earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees. He is the behind the Clean Break Policy and Fighting terrorism book in 1995 where he created the playbook for regime change in Iraq and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and finishing off with Iran. Benjamin Netanyahu has so far been successful to engage the United States in six wars.

You don't need to be a military strategist to figure it out his plan.
1. Prop up and fund a militant Palestinian group to create political opposition to the PLO
2. Lay siege and enclose 2+ million in the largest open air prison while controlling their water, electricity, fuel and anything that enters
3. Create oppressive conditions while periodically "mowing the lawn" and committing war crimes like using white phosphorus
4. Suppress any form of non-violent protest with force
5. Population will eventually respond violently
6. Deliberately ignore intelligence, make army respond slowly to allow the sacrifice Israelis on October 7 while maximizing casualties via the Hannibal directive
7. Manufacture consent by propagating fake stories like beheaded babies, fetus being ripped out, mass rape, etc.
8. Enter Gaza under the guise of eliminating Hamas/securing hostages but with the real purpose of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

And if you think "6" is not believable, and that countries like the US or Israel would not sacrifice their citizens or their allies for false pretenses or political gain, then that is an incredibly naive view. I will refer you to couple examples that you can start looking into:
• Operation Northwoods (JFK vetoed it)
• USS Liberty/Operation Cyanide (LBJ and Israel cooperated to do this)
• London Israeli Embassy bombing
• Lavon Affair
• Tel Aviv bus bombing (another false flag, Israelis arrested)
• Or you can even just look as recently as the Iraq War where American soldiers died for the sake of regime change

Totally, yup, Netanyahu personally created hamas, made millions of Palestinians vote for them, forced them to carry out nonstop waves of rocket attacks/terrorist attacks/October 7 (which were also false flags and/or not that bad?), then used all of the above as an excuse to carry out genocide/ethnic cleansing for….reasons. And the Palestinians are completely blameless with respect to all of the above because they are simply pawns in Netanyahu’s master scheme.

Israel doesn’t want Gaza. Genuinely, Israelis don’t believe that Gazans are going anywhere and they have zero interest in that tiny strip of land other than to ensure its inhabitants leave Israelis the f alone. They tried to give Gaza to Egypt ffs! And Egypt said no because they ALSO didn’t want that extremist hellhole.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

Netanyahu didn’t make Hamas perpetrate, but he didn’t stop it either.

It makes all the sense in the world when you contextualize pre 10/7 Israel which is literally fighting all summer between seculars and religious Jews /Bibi supporters. Netanyahu pretty
Much put the David dukes of Israel in his cabinet. The guys who proudly bragged about their friend killing the former leftist prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. The Israeli left wing was furious when Bibi tried to overtake their Supreme Court to avoid trial. It’s like if 9/11 happened during the Lewinsky case. We would obviously no longer talk about Lewinsky and support the president if 9/11 happened in 1998. This is what happened in Israel. Israel is a fortress. You can’t scale that wall if you tried. They have sealed borders and military everywhere you look . That weekend, military was removed and Hamas was allowed to scale that wall and push through to Israel without facing any military pushback/ interference

I mean, that’s certainly a sexy conspiracy theory but you have zero evidence for it

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

Netanyahu didn’t make Hamas perpetrate, but he didn’t stop it either.

It makes all the sense in the world when you contextualize pre 10/7 Israel which is literally fighting all summer between seculars and religious Jews /Bibi supporters. Netanyahu pretty
Much put the David dukes of Israel in his cabinet. The guys who proudly bragged about their friend killing the former leftist prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. The Israeli left wing was furious when Bibi tried to overtake their Supreme Court to avoid trial. It’s like if 9/11 happened during the Lewinsky case. We would obviously no longer talk about Lewinsky and support the president if 9/11 happened in 1998. This is what happened in Israel. Israel is a fortress. You can’t scale that wall if you tried. They have sealed borders and military everywhere you look . That weekend, military was removed and Hamas was allowed to scale that wall and push through to Israel without facing any military pushback/ interference

I mean, that’s certainly a sexy conspiracy theory but you have zero evidence for it

There is plenty of evidence for it from Israeli news which reports better news than over here. Bibi shut down the 10/7 probe and manipulated some of his phone call transcripts to cover up his stand down orders to the army. He’s Benedict Arnold of Israel and even an ex Mossad chief openly spoke out against him, said he hated him, and wanted to JOIN of all people the leftist protestors that summer to take him out via coup. Netanyahu blames 10/7 on intelligence failure when he was given the intelligence but refused to act as commander of the army

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-03-06/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-blames-israeli-intelligence-for-oct-7-but-they-served-him-until-the-attack/00000195-6795-d20b-a1b7-f7df445c0000

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/netanyahus-wife-alleges-coup-plot-by-army-bosses-against-israels-pm-18176957

I think if the relationship with America continues to dwindle, they will have no choice but to remove him somehow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have trouble with theocracies of any form. I know technically Israel is a democracy but religion is very much tied to who can become a citizen. I don’t like that anywhere and for any religion. I don't advocate for the dissolution of states, but I do advocate for the end of laws based on religion in my own country. I do advocate for democracy everywhere.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group. ALL countries give preference to their own people, however that is defined, in matters of immigration and citizenship. E.g., if you have Irish ancestry you will have an easier time becoming an Irish citizen. Not for nothing, but you’re going to have a hard time becoming a citizen of basically any Muslim-majority country (with a few exceptions) if you’re not Muslim.

Israel is also somewhat unique in that it was expressly founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution. So it has historically prioritized Jewish immigration for that reason - not because of some kind of racial/religious superiority complex, as many people would have you believe.

Nevertheless, people of all religions are citizens of Israel and live there in relative peace and prosperity (I’m talking about Israel proper, not the Palestinian Territories). In fact, there are ONE HUNDRED FORTY TIMES more non-Jewish Arab citizens of Israel than there are Jews in the entire rest of the Middle East (2,100,000 vs. 15,000). They may face some informal social prejudice (like all minority groups everywhere) but are absolutely equal citizens in the eyes of the government, and enjoy full rights.

no they don't- non jewish citizens are prohibited from purchasing property in large swathes of Israel just for starters. so they have "covenants" like we did in the US that bar non jews from acquiring property. there have been multiple court cases- in a very famous case- a family had purchased homes in the 1950s and an extremist group found out that the non jewish family had purchased the homes from jews in the 1940s and the Supreme Court of Israel forced the non jews out of the Homs and declared these illegal. they didn't even allow the non jews to sell the homes- they just took them and kicked them out b/c once a home is owned by a jeweler, it cannot be sold to a non jew. I

no-one is goi ng to be ok either this sort of nonsense in this- the year of our Lord- 2025. if you have laws like this you cannot call yourself a western style democracy. there are other laws limiting non jewish citizens from having the same rights as jewishcitizens but the point is- theocracies are garbage. religion is something you practice in the privacy of your own home. it should stay there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So help me out. I am jewish and dont agree with Israel. Can I be self-anti-semitic? I am not being ironic. I have grappled for a long time with this conundrum.

Israel has been talking about imposing a supreme religious leader(like an Ayatollah ) or a supreme council made up of 7 seats(6 from Israel, one for the rest of the world). This would clarify what qualifies as being Jewish, what beliefs you must hold, who could immigrate to Israel, etc. It is much needed.

like the Sanhedrin??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the only Jewish country in the world. Being anti Zionist is anti semite.

Christians and Muslims have plenty of countries. Jews only have one.

This is why I make a point of saying I’m anti Netanyahu NOT anti Israel. It’s because I like Israel that I want Netanyahu gone. It’s either he’s gone or the country’s gone because he’s that toxic

that's b/c Judaism is a religion like Sikhisms, its not a world religion like christianity, buddhism & islam and frankly jews have a hard time buying this. there are crores more hindus, yet they don't have a hindu state. jews don't deserve a state b/c they are a minor league and an ethic group based tiny fraction of humanity. bahai don't have their own country, Druze don't have their own country, even shinto or tao don't have their own country. people with these kinds of religions are nuts if they think they should have their own countries and there is also a general consensus amongst Americans and ALL liberal educated human beings from all faiths that christian and muslim republics are embarrassing relics that should be forced to into modernity and a separation of Church &bstate and its backwards to be a "christian" country or "muslim" country. so much so that King Charles wanted the Quran read at his coronation as part of his discomfort with the "defender of faith" title

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have trouble with theocracies of any form. I know technically Israel is a democracy but religion is very much tied to who can become a citizen. I don’t like that anywhere and for any religion. I don't advocate for the dissolution of states, but I do advocate for the end of laws based on religion in my own country. I do advocate for democracy everywhere.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group. ALL countries give preference to their own people, however that is defined, in matters of immigration and citizenship. E.g., if you have Irish ancestry you will have an easier time becoming an Irish citizen. Not for nothing, but you’re going to have a hard time becoming a citizen of basically any Muslim-majority country (with a few exceptions) if you’re not Muslim.

Israel is also somewhat unique in that it was expressly founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution. So it has historically prioritized Jewish immigration for that reason - not because of some kind of racial/religious superiority complex, as many people would have you believe.

Nevertheless, people of all religions are citizens of Israel and live there in relative peace and prosperity (I’m talking about Israel proper, not the Palestinian Territories). In fact, there are ONE HUNDRED FORTY TIMES more non-Jewish Arab citizens of Israel than there are Jews in the entire rest of the Middle East (2,100,000 vs. 15,000). They may face some informal social prejudice (like all minority groups everywhere) but are absolutely equal citizens in the eyes of the government, and enjoy full rights.

no they don't- non jewish citizens are prohibited from purchasing property in large swathes of Israel just for starters. so they have "covenants" like we did in the US that bar non jews from acquiring property. there have been multiple court cases- in a very famous case- a family had purchased homes in the 1950s and an extremist group found out that the non jewish family had purchased the homes from jews in the 1940s and the Supreme Court of Israel forced the non jews out of the Homs and declared these illegal. they didn't even allow the non jews to sell the homes- they just took them and kicked them out b/c once a home is owned by a jeweler, it cannot be sold to a non jew. I

no-one is goi ng to be ok either this sort of nonsense in this- the year of our Lord- 2025. if you have laws like this you cannot call yourself a western style democracy. there are other laws limiting non jewish citizens from having the same rights as jewishcitizens but the point is- theocracies are garbage. religion is something you practice in the privacy of your own home. it should stay there.

Yeah again, this is patently untrue propaganda but nice try. This source explains the system in Israel quite well if you’re interested: https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel. There are in actual fact no special restrictions on Arabs’ ability to buy or lease land.

Idk what Supreme Court case you’re referring to, but if you mean the Sumarin case that recently got a lot of attention in the west, what happened there was that the Israeli supreme court ruled IN FAVOR of the Palestinian Sumarin family, preventing their eviction from their home (which had been based on Israel’s absentee property law). If you’re talking about another case you’ll have to name it because I couldn’t find anything like what you’re describing.

People just repeat these lies and believe them unquestioningly, which is how we’ve found ourselves in the situation where people see Israel as some kind of uniquely evil bogeyman. It’s just a country, with flaws like any country, trying to survive in an incredibly hostile and antisemitic region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the only Jewish country in the world. Being anti Zionist is anti semite.

Christians and Muslims have plenty of countries. Jews only have one.

This is why I make a point of saying I’m anti Netanyahu NOT anti Israel. It’s because I like Israel that I want Netanyahu gone. It’s either he’s gone or the country’s gone because he’s that toxic

that's b/c Judaism is a religion like Sikhisms, its not a world religion like christianity, buddhism & islam and frankly jews have a hard time buying this. there are crores more hindus, yet they don't have a hindu state. jews don't deserve a state b/c they are a minor league and an ethic group based tiny fraction of humanity. bahai don't have their own country, Druze don't have their own country, even shinto or tao don't have their own country. people with these kinds of religions are nuts if they think they should have their own countries and there is also a general consensus amongst Americans and ALL liberal educated human beings from all faiths that christian and muslim republics are embarrassing relics that should be forced to into modernity and a separation of Church &bstate and its backwards to be a "christian" country or "muslim" country. so much so that King Charles wanted the Quran read at his coronation as part of his discomfort with the "defender of faith" title

Oh word? Did those other groups have half their populations wiped out in one of the worst genocides the world has ever seen? Don’t be deliberately obtuse. You know full well what sets Jews apart from those other groups, and why they feel they need an actual country to call home.

Also, because YOU mentioned Bahaii people: incidentally, The Bahaii Faith's administrative and spiritual center is in Israel. Because Israel is a pluralistic society where people of all religions can practice freely and not fear religious persecution. By contrast, in Iran, where the Bahaii religion was actually founded, Bahaii people are brutally oppressed and frequently executed. Just a little tidbit for you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.

Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!

If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.

No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.

Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.

What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?

It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.

You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza.

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have trouble with theocracies of any form. I know technically Israel is a democracy but religion is very much tied to who can become a citizen. I don’t like that anywhere and for any religion. I don't advocate for the dissolution of states, but I do advocate for the end of laws based on religion in my own country. I do advocate for democracy everywhere.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group. ALL countries give preference to their own people, however that is defined, in matters of immigration and citizenship. E.g., if you have Irish ancestry you will have an easier time becoming an Irish citizen. Not for nothing, but you’re going to have a hard time becoming a citizen of basically any Muslim-majority country (with a few exceptions) if you’re not Muslim.

Israel is also somewhat unique in that it was expressly founded as a refuge for Jews fleeing persecution. So it has historically prioritized Jewish immigration for that reason - not because of some kind of racial/religious superiority complex, as many people would have you believe.

Nevertheless, people of all religions are citizens of Israel and live there in relative peace and prosperity (I’m talking about Israel proper, not the Palestinian Territories). In fact, there are ONE HUNDRED FORTY TIMES more non-Jewish Arab citizens of Israel than there are Jews in the entire rest of the Middle East (2,100,000 vs. 15,000). They may face some informal social prejudice (like all minority groups everywhere) but are absolutely equal citizens in the eyes of the government, and enjoy full rights.

no they don't- non jewish citizens are prohibited from purchasing property in large swathes of Israel just for starters. so they have "covenants" like we did in the US that bar non jews from acquiring property. there have been multiple court cases- in a very famous case- a family had purchased homes in the 1950s and an extremist group found out that the non jewish family had purchased the homes from jews in the 1940s and the Supreme Court of Israel forced the non jews out of the Homs and declared these illegal. they didn't even allow the non jews to sell the homes- they just took them and kicked them out b/c once a home is owned by a jeweler, it cannot be sold to a non jew. I

no-one is goi ng to be ok either this sort of nonsense in this- the year of our Lord- 2025. if you have laws like this you cannot call yourself a western style democracy. there are other laws limiting non jewish citizens from having the same rights as jewishcitizens but the point is- theocracies are garbage. religion is something you practice in the privacy of your own home. it should stay there.

Yeah again, this is patently untrue propaganda but nice try. This source explains the system in Israel quite well if you’re interested: https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel. There are in actual fact no special restrictions on Arabs’ ability to buy or lease land.

Idk what Supreme Court case you’re referring to, but if you mean the Sumarin case that recently got a lot of attention in the west, what happened there was that the Israeli supreme court ruled IN FAVOR of the Palestinian Sumarin family, preventing their eviction from their home (which had been based on Israel’s absentee property law). If you’re talking about another case you’ll have to name it because I couldn’t find anything like what you’re describing.

People just repeat these lies and believe them unquestioningly, which is how we’ve found ourselves in the situation where people see Israel as some kind of uniquely evil bogeyman. It’s just a country, with flaws like any country, trying to survive in an incredibly hostile and antisemitic region.

Even setting all this aside, are you this obsessed with the intricacies of land use jurisprudence in any other country in the world? No? Just Israel? I think you demonstrated the point in the OP then.

[Anonymous]

The jury is in on this one …

What I learned this week regarding the mobilization of Zionists and Zionist allies to threaten and intimidate community organizations into backing out of events because scheduled speakers called for a cease fire at some point over the past two years - absolutely grotesque conduct, and sadly validation of all past experiences, as well.

It boils down to this for me. If you cannot find a way to oppose the loss of innocent life, regardless of any other circumstances surrounding that loss of life, you are clearly, squarely part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The jury is in on this one …

What I learned this week regarding the mobilization of Zionists and Zionist allies to threaten and intimidate community organizations into backing out of events because scheduled speakers called for a cease fire at some point over the past two years - absolutely grotesque conduct, and sadly validation of all past experiences, as well.

It boils down to this for me. If you cannot find a way to oppose the loss of innocent life, regardless of any other circumstances surrounding that loss of life, you are clearly, squarely part of the problem.

Please provide an example of “zionists and Zionist allies” threatening and intimidating a speaker solely over the fact that they called for a ceasefire at some point. I am a Zionist and agree that’s unreasonable. If you mean a speaker who called for a ceasefire on October 8, then yeah, that person should be viewed with some suspicion IMO.

You’re not going to see any argument from me on your second point. If you can’t see the loss of innocent life on either side of this conflict as a tragedy then you’re in the wrong. I think though, that sympathy for the Jewish victims (to the limited extent there was any) seemed to basically dissipate on October 8. See here for an example of what I’m talking about: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/demonstrators-rally-across-the-u-s-in-response-to-conflict-between-israel-and-hamas. And many Jews now see the same people who were silent about or tacitly supportive of October 7 now bemoaning the situation of the Palestinians (which I agree is horrific, even if partially of their own making).