Reply to Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here? [/quote]

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona. [/quote]
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.[/quote]

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan![/quote]
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.[/quote]

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.[/quote]
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.[/quote]

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
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Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.[/quote]

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project. [/quote]

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.[/quote]
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.[/quote]

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?[/quote]
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.[/quote]

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too. [/quote]
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?[/quote]

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either. [/quote]

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid. [/quote]

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?[/quote]

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now. [/quote]

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

[/quote]

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that. [/quote]

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages. [/quote]

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it. [/quote]

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza. [/quote]

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them. 
[/quote]

Hannibal directive is a thing in the IDF. [/quote]

Exactly, when a government has a defined protocol to kill its own people that involved apache helicopters and tanks, maybe one should reconsider how expendable their own citizens are. [/quote]

The whole point of that directive is to avoid the prospect of Israeli soldiers being taken hostage, because up until this government, the country has been willing to make almost any deal to free hostages. How would it make sense for them to deliberately kill or allow Israeli civilians and soldiers to be killed but also let several hundred people be taken captive? And, again, why would Netanyahu, who everyone agrees is a morally bankrupt monster, need to have a pretext to invade Gaza?

Why does he have to be an evil mastermind, when it seems fairly obvious that he’s actually an evil moron?[/quote]

If you think Netanyahu is a moron, then you haven't studied anything about his life or who he is. He is one of the smartest politicians alive. He was an officer in the elite Sayeret Matkal unit of the IDF, the Israeli equivalent of the American Delta forces. He went to MIT - where he earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees. He is the behind the Clean Break Policy and Fighting terrorism book in 1995 where he created the playbook for regime change in Iraq and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and finishing off with Iran. Benjamin Netanyahu has so far been successful to engage the United States in six wars.

You don't need to be a military strategist to figure it out his plan.
1. Prop up and fund a militant Palestinian group to create political opposition to the PLO 
2. Lay siege and enclose 2+ million in the largest open air prison while controlling their water, electricity, fuel and anything that enters 
3. Create oppressive conditions while periodically "mowing the lawn" and committing war crimes like using white phosphorus 
4. Suppress any form of non-violent protest with force
5. Population will eventually respond violently
6. Deliberately ignore intelligence, make army respond slowly to allow the sacrifice Israelis on October 7 while maximizing casualties via the Hannibal directive
7. Manufacture consent by propagating fake stories like beheaded babies, fetus being ripped out, mass rape, etc.
8. Enter Gaza under the guise of eliminating Hamas/securing hostages but with the real purpose of ethnic cleansing and genocide.

And if you think "6" is not believable, and that countries like the US or Israel would not sacrifice their citizens or their allies for false pretenses or political gain, then that is an incredibly naive view. I will refer you to  couple examples that you can start looking into:
• Operation Northwoods (JFK vetoed it)
• USS Liberty/Operation Cyanide (LBJ and Israel cooperated to do this)
• London Israeli Embassy bombing 
• Lavon Affair
• Tel Aviv bus bombing (another false flag, Israelis arrested)
• Or you can even just look as recently as the Iraq War where American soldiers died for the sake of regime change[/quote]

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