Reply to Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here? [/quote]

Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona. [/quote]
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.[/quote]

Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan![/quote]
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.[/quote]

So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.[/quote]
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.[/quote]

That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.

Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
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Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.[/quote]

They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project. [/quote]

Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.

Please. I’ll wait.[/quote]
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.[/quote]

Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?[/quote]
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.[/quote]

A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too. [/quote]
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?[/quote]

If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.

I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.

It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either. [/quote]

Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.

End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid. [/quote]

What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?[/quote]

It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.

If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now. [/quote]

Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?

[/quote]

I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that. [/quote]

Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages. [/quote]

I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.

Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it. [/quote]

It's also baffling that people don't look into or are uninterested in the details of how Israel/Netanyahu intentionally allowed the Hamas operation to occur unimpeded with full knowledge and sacrifice his own people so he could have a pretext to wipe out Gaza. [/quote]

This is an insane conspiracy theory, akin to “Bush caused 9/11” and even if you accept that it’s true - Netanyahu did not make Hamas perpetrate an absolute sadistic orgy of violence on Israeli citizens. They did that all on their own, and most Gazans supported them and continue to support them. 
[/quote]

Netanyahu didn’t make Hamas perpetrate, but he didn’t stop it either.

It makes all the sense in the world when you contextualize pre 10/7 Israel which is literally fighting all summer between seculars and religious Jews /Bibi supporters. Netanyahu pretty
Much put the David dukes of Israel in his cabinet. The guys who proudly bragged about their friend killing the former leftist prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. The Israeli left wing was furious when Bibi tried to overtake their Supreme Court to avoid trial. It’s like if 9/11 happened during the Lewinsky case. We would obviously no longer talk about Lewinsky and support the president if 9/11 happened in 1998. This is what happened in Israel. Israel is a fortress. You can’t scale that wall if you tried. They have sealed borders and military everywhere you look . That weekend, military was removed and Hamas  was allowed to scale that wall and push through to Israel without facing any military pushback/ interference [/quote]

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