Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

DP

I don’t agree that anti-Zionism must mean one doesn’t believe that Jews should have a homeland.

Can someone not be critical of Israel - perhaps even extremely critical - without wanting the nation state to disappear?

Why is the concept of “reform” as an alternative to “political dissolution” so difficult for some to consider?

This seems to be very subjective, therefore how can antizionism equal antisemitism if the definition varies even amongst the OG Jews?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

DP

I don’t agree that anti-Zionism must mean one doesn’t believe that Jews should have a homeland.

Can someone not be critical of Israel - perhaps even extremely critical - without wanting the nation state to disappear?

Why is the concept of “reform” as an alternative to “political dissolution” so difficult for some to consider?

This seems to be very subjective, therefore how can antizionism equal antisemitism if the definition varies even amongst the OG Jews?

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, the movement for the self-determination and statehood of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. While it can encompass various viewpoints, it fundamentally denies the Jewish people's right to a Jewish state in that region. Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of specific policies of the Israeli government or critiques of the pre-state Zionist movement, as it attacks the legitimacy of Jewish statehood itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

DP

I don’t agree that anti-Zionism must mean one doesn’t believe that Jews should have a homeland.

Can someone not be critical of Israel - perhaps even extremely critical - without wanting the nation state to disappear?

Why is the concept of “reform” as an alternative to “political dissolution” so difficult for some to consider?

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, the movement for the self-determination and statehood of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. While it can encompass various viewpoints, it fundamentally denies the Jewish people's right to a Jewish state in that region. Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of specific policies of the Israeli government or critiques of the pre-state Zionist movement, as it attacks the legitimacy of Jewish statehood itself

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So there’s anti Judaism which could affect anyone who practices Judiasm, coverts would fit into this, these people have no ancestral ties to Israel and aren’t related to Holocaust victims, this is like any other anti religion.
Then you have antisemitism which is hatred of Semitic jews, the OG jews if you will. These jews have ancestral ties to Israel, they are genetically jewish, may suffer from genetically jewish diseases, tay sachs, brca 1-2 mutations, etc. they are directly related to Holocaust victims. Antizionism is belief that ‘jews’ should not have a homeland. Are these accurate? I have an issue with nonsemitic jews , converts if you will, having a homeland in the ME, when their homeland is clearly not Israel.

This is word salad and completely inaccurate and it has already been explained to you multiple times that antisemitism refers to discrimination AGAINST JEWS. Not against all semites, not against “semitic” Jews. ALL JEWS. Clearly you are confused by the term, and also cannot read or refuse to accept this definition because it does not fit your narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

You sound extremely confused. People have already tried to explain all this to you multiple times and you refuse to read or acknowledge. I’m going to stop giving you oxygen now.

[Anonymous]

Well, new lawsuit just filed against the Nysmith school in VA alleging a pervasive culture of antisemitism.

Of particular relevance to the one lady relentlessly b**ching on this and other threads about her son being called an antisemite at school. Please understand that this is what Jewish students are dealing with at school: severe bullying and harassment, being called baby killers, being told they deserve to die, having their TEACHERS glorify Hitler…and when they dare complain, being expelled from school along with all their siblings: https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Vazquez-and-Roy-v.-Nysmith-School.-Virginia-Attorney-General-Office-of-Civil-Rights_Redacted-1.pdf

Note that among the many facts alleged, the school cancelled a speaker for Holocaust Memorial Day because they were afraid it would “inflame tensions” given the situation in Gaza. Then THE NEXT DAY, they hung a Palestinian flag in the gym.

Note also, for all you people insisting that all Jews are white - the father of the child is a Jew with a Hispanic surname and the mother is Indian. Similarly, for all those insisting Jews don’t experience antisemitism because they’re wealthy (setting aside the problematic stereotype) - this was a private school. The student’s wealth did not protect her at all.

This is in Herndon, VA in 2025.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

DP

I don’t agree that anti-Zionism must mean one doesn’t believe that Jews should have a homeland.

Can someone not be critical of Israel - perhaps even extremely critical - without wanting the nation state to disappear?

Why is the concept of “reform” as an alternative to “political dissolution” so difficult for some to consider?

This seems to be very subjective, therefore how can antizionism equal antisemitism if the definition varies even amongst the OG Jews?

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, the movement for the self-determination and statehood of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. While it can encompass various viewpoints, it fundamentally denies the Jewish people's right to a Jewish state in that region. Anti-Zionism is distinct from criticism of specific policies of the Israeli government or critiques of the pre-state Zionist movement, as it attacks the legitimacy of Jewish statehood itself.

this seems accurate. because if you support a 'one-state solution' with equal de facto and de jure rights for all (i.e. canada/usa) type system, that is considered 'anti-zionist' .

in short, does one believe that a jewish state has a right to exist and maintain itself as a jewish state.

If you are consistent that ethnostates should not exist...ie china should not be a state just for the 'han people' then you can be consistently anti-zionist without being anti-semetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.

How does the fact that a minuscule number of converts immigrate to Israel somehow undermine the claim that Jews have ancestral ties to Israel? Judaism started in Israel. The vast majority of Jews are not converts. What is difficult to understand here, I’m not getting it.

Are you saying being Jewish isn’t an immutable characteristic so it’s all bullshit? People can convert to Judaism, yes, but the more relevant point is that ethnic Jews can’t really convert OUT of Judaism in a way that will shield them from discrimination. Even those who publicly disavow their faith or try to pass as Christians are persecuted (there are countless, countless examples of this during the Holocaust and throughout history). So Jewish ethnicity/ancestry is a salient category.

I have no idea how many people have converted throughout history, 2000+ years and neither do you. How many Ivanka Trumps have there been?

Just so I’m understanding correctly: your argument is that people may have converted to Judaism over the years, so Jews can’t claim ancestral ties to the land, so they have no legitimate claim to Israel, is that right? I think you’re misunderstanding what Israel is then.

First off - again, historically very few people have converted INTO Judaism. That’s just a fact. Even if we don’t know exact numbers, we know that most Jews are not converts and do not descend from converts.

Secondly, no one, except people on the fringe religious right, claims that Israel belongs to the Jews SOLELY because they used to live there 2000 years ago. That’s an element of it, sure, but there are lots of other reasons that particular piece of land was chosen. Chief among them - it was the only place on offer. Early Zionists considered Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, and other places, but the British were uniquely amenable to the Zionist project. And a bunch of literal pogrom and/or concentration camp survivors weren’t in a position to turn that down, really. Additionally, Israel is a place that has religious significance for Jews. And a place where Jews have had a continuous presence for millennia.

I agree with what you've written here. BUT I think displacing Palestinians who also had a "continuous presence for millennia" to the land, tearing down their homes / communities, portraying that Israel was a "land without people for a people without land", seeking kudos for "making the desert bloom" when already orchards had been well established by Palestinians-- basically all acts that wiped away Palestinian history--- has led to the problems we see in the region.

To heal the wounds in the middle east, Israel needs to see that they have not always been the victim but have also the perpetrator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, new lawsuit just filed against the Nysmith school in VA alleging a pervasive culture of antisemitism.

Of particular relevance to the one lady relentlessly b**ching on this and other threads about her son being called an antisemite at school. Please understand that this is what Jewish students are dealing with at school: severe bullying and harassment, being called baby killers, being told they deserve to die, having their TEACHERS glorify Hitler…and when they dare complain, being expelled from school along with all their siblings: https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Vazquez-and-Roy-v.-Nysmith-School.-Virginia-Attorney-General-Office-of-Civil-Rights_Redacted-1.pdf

Note that among the many facts alleged, the school cancelled a speaker for Holocaust Memorial Day because they were afraid it would “inflame tensions” given the situation in Gaza. Then THE NEXT DAY, they hung a Palestinian flag in the gym.

Note also, for all you people insisting that all Jews are white - the father of the child is a Jew with a Hispanic surname and the mother is Indian. Similarly, for all those insisting Jews don’t experience antisemitism because they’re wealthy (setting aside the problematic stereotype) - this was a private school. The student’s wealth did not protect her at all.

This is in Herndon, VA in 2025.

All this could’ve been avoided if the idf wasn’t streaming carpet bombs or dancing in dead women’s underwear on TikTok

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is the homeland of the Jews. One of Ivanka Trump’s children could become leader of this Jewish nation one day.

One of Woody Allen’s children could become the leader of Israel some day. Not sure what your point is.

So the ancestral ties thing is really a bunch of crap. If an Ivanka Trump had more kids with a nonjew, not one person in this equation has ties to Israel or its land.

How does the fact that a minuscule number of converts immigrate to Israel somehow undermine the claim that Jews have ancestral ties to Israel? Judaism started in Israel. The vast majority of Jews are not converts. What is difficult to understand here, I’m not getting it.

Are you saying being Jewish isn’t an immutable characteristic so it’s all bullshit? People can convert to Judaism, yes, but the more relevant point is that ethnic Jews can’t really convert OUT of Judaism in a way that will shield them from discrimination. Even those who publicly disavow their faith or try to pass as Christians are persecuted (there are countless, countless examples of this during the Holocaust and throughout history). So Jewish ethnicity/ancestry is a salient category.

I have no idea how many people have converted throughout history, 2000+ years and neither do you. How many Ivanka Trumps have there been?

Just so I’m understanding correctly: your argument is that people may have converted to Judaism over the years, so Jews can’t claim ancestral ties to the land, so they have no legitimate claim to Israel, is that right? I think you’re misunderstanding what Israel is then.

First off - again, historically very few people have converted INTO Judaism. That’s just a fact. Even if we don’t know exact numbers, we know that most Jews are not converts and do not descend from converts.

Secondly, no one, except people on the fringe religious right, claims that Israel belongs to the Jews SOLELY because they used to live there 2000 years ago. That’s an element of it, sure, but there are lots of other reasons that particular piece of land was chosen. Chief among them - it was the only place on offer. Early Zionists considered Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, and other places, but the British were uniquely amenable to the Zionist project. And a bunch of literal pogrom and/or concentration camp survivors weren’t in a position to turn that down, really. Additionally, Israel is a place that has religious significance for Jews. And a place where Jews have had a continuous presence for millennia.

I agree with what you've written here. BUT I think displacing Palestinians who also had a "continuous presence for millennia" to the land, tearing down their homes / communities, portraying that Israel was a "land without people for a people without land", seeking kudos for "making the desert bloom" when already orchards had been well established by Palestinians-- basically all acts that wiped away Palestinian history--- has led to the problems we see in the region.

To heal the wounds in the middle east, Israel needs to see that they have not always been the victim but have also the perpetrator.

I’m the PP you’re responding to and I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Pretty much 100% of zionists I know would also agree with you also.

From a practical perspective though - the Israeli government and Israeli people don’t deny that Palestinians were displaced or killed when the country was founded. The slogans you refer to are from the very early days of Zionism, not today. I don’t know what further acknowledgment of Palestinian history is going to accomplish when there is NO corresponding introspection on the Palestinian side. Like, let’s say the Israeli government comes out with a statement tomorrow saying “we were wrong to do XYZ in 1948” - now what? You think Hamas is just going to be like “oh ok that’s alright then. We surrender.” Absolutely not. Their project, which is supported by most Palestinians according to recent polling, is to reclaim ALL of Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, new lawsuit just filed against the Nysmith school in VA alleging a pervasive culture of antisemitism.

Of particular relevance to the one lady relentlessly b**ching on this and other threads about her son being called an antisemite at school. Please understand that this is what Jewish students are dealing with at school: severe bullying and harassment, being called baby killers, being told they deserve to die, having their TEACHERS glorify Hitler…and when they dare complain, being expelled from school along with all their siblings: https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Vazquez-and-Roy-v.-Nysmith-School.-Virginia-Attorney-General-Office-of-Civil-Rights_Redacted-1.pdf

Note that among the many facts alleged, the school cancelled a speaker for Holocaust Memorial Day because they were afraid it would “inflame tensions” given the situation in Gaza. Then THE NEXT DAY, they hung a Palestinian flag in the gym.

Note also, for all you people insisting that all Jews are white - the father of the child is a Jew with a Hispanic surname and the mother is Indian. Similarly, for all those insisting Jews don’t experience antisemitism because they’re wealthy (setting aside the problematic stereotype) - this was a private school. The student’s wealth did not protect her at all.

This is in Herndon, VA in 2025.

All this could’ve been avoided if the idf wasn’t streaming carpet bombs or dancing in dead women’s underwear on TikTok

Let’s say this was a Muslim student and this was October 8th. Would you have chimed in to say “all this could have been avoided if the Palestinians weren’t recording videos of themselves decapitating civilians with axes or kidnapping babies”? Somehow I don’t think so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, new lawsuit just filed against the Nysmith school in VA alleging a pervasive culture of antisemitism.

Of particular relevance to the one lady relentlessly b**ching on this and other threads about her son being called an antisemite at school. Please understand that this is what Jewish students are dealing with at school: severe bullying and harassment, being called baby killers, being told they deserve to die, having their TEACHERS glorify Hitler…and when they dare complain, being expelled from school along with all their siblings: https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Vazquez-and-Roy-v.-Nysmith-School.-Virginia-Attorney-General-Office-of-Civil-Rights_Redacted-1.pdf

Note that among the many facts alleged, the school cancelled a speaker for Holocaust Memorial Day because they were afraid it would “inflame tensions” given the situation in Gaza. Then THE NEXT DAY, they hung a Palestinian flag in the gym.

Note also, for all you people insisting that all Jews are white - the father of the child is a Jew with a Hispanic surname and the mother is Indian. Similarly, for all those insisting Jews don’t experience antisemitism because they’re wealthy (setting aside the problematic stereotype) - this was a private school. The student’s wealth did not protect her at all.

This is in Herndon, VA in 2025.

I just a plain old white American nonjew trying to get by. I’m sad and quite disappointed that this has to be part of anyone’s life, let alone anyone with no dog in this fight. My white American nonjewish child is innocent and doesn’t deserve to be labeled a racist. Our town is 33% Jewish. I have nothing to do with the jews and the ME. If Palestinians and Jews want to perpetuate leave me and my kid the hell out of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, new lawsuit just filed against the Nysmith school in VA alleging a pervasive culture of antisemitism.

Of particular relevance to the one lady relentlessly b**ching on this and other threads about her son being called an antisemite at school. Please understand that this is what Jewish students are dealing with at school: severe bullying and harassment, being called baby killers, being told they deserve to die, having their TEACHERS glorify Hitler…and when they dare complain, being expelled from school along with all their siblings: https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Vazquez-and-Roy-v.-Nysmith-School.-Virginia-Attorney-General-Office-of-Civil-Rights_Redacted-1.pdf

Note that among the many facts alleged, the school cancelled a speaker for Holocaust Memorial Day because they were afraid it would “inflame tensions” given the situation in Gaza. Then THE NEXT DAY, they hung a Palestinian flag in the gym.

Note also, for all you people insisting that all Jews are white - the father of the child is a Jew with a Hispanic surname and the mother is Indian. Similarly, for all those insisting Jews don’t experience antisemitism because they’re wealthy (setting aside the problematic stereotype) - this was a private school. The student’s wealth did not protect her at all.

This is in Herndon, VA in 2025.

This is the play book. Make false claims that are never collaborated or proven. Then play the victim and force everyone to shut up or be punished. I believe the school’s narrative and am glad these people were expelled. Good for the school. This fake antisemitism has gone on for too long. People need to stand up against this bullsh#t. So tied of the victimhood and the subservient of the US to Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

DP

I don’t agree that anti-Zionism must mean one doesn’t believe that Jews should have a homeland.

Can someone not be critical of Israel - perhaps even extremely critical - without wanting the nation state to disappear?

Why is the concept of “reform” as an alternative to “political dissolution” so difficult for some to consider?

This seems to be very subjective, therefore how can antizionism equal antisemitism if the definition varies even amongst the OG Jews?

We’ll let me start by saying that the reference to “OG Jews” makes me doubt your bona fides

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ezra Klein just said in his latest podcast…

The worst thing Israeli advocates can do is tie anti-Zionism to anti-semitism because it will drive many to say “fine, I’m the latter then”

Ezra is Jewish and a Zionist himself

I agree. I as a nonjew living amongst thousands of jews, am having a difficult time deciphering why the jews I personally know consider these terms synonymous. The definition of antisemitism is hatred of jews, but then I question that not all jews are Semitic so therefore not all anti Judaism is antisemitism with the latter being more damaging and racist. Antizionism means that you don’t believe jews should have a homeland, but again if a jew is an Ivanka Trump, I may not agree with zionism.

You sound very confused. It is not actually hard to get a basic understanding of the issues even if you disagree with various viewpoints. But your weird Ivanka frolic and detour makes me think you either lack the cognitive capacity or desire to actually figure it out.