I just learned about tribe gaslighting and more people should know about it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this blog post about "tribe gaslighting" and was kind of astounded because this EXACT thing has happened to me multiple times:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201811/gaslighting-tribe

Basically she is just talking about how groups will often gaslight on behalf of a narcissist, by refusing to acknowledge another person's experience with the narcissist. So they'll say things like "Oh, that's not my experience with her" or "I've never noticed him acting that way" instead of listening to what someone is saying.

I was in a workplace a few years back and this is exactly what happened. Our boss was incredibly inappropriate and boundary-violating with me. Stuff like: commenting on my personal life in the middle of staff meetings, criticizing my eating habits, making comments about how my clothes fit or how I wore my hair. Whenever I would bring it up with anyone else at work, they'd kind of shrug and say that they had never noticed it or that they didn't think that stuff was a big deal. It made me feel crazy and after I left that job I spent a lot of time thinking that I was the problem, that I was too sensitive and needed to get over stuff like this.

But this is what it was: tribe gaslighting. That boss was super inappropriate and probably should have been fired or, at a minimum, sent to an extensive training program to address this behavior. I can't believe I ever accepted any of it as normal.

Anyway, passing this along in case other people go through this. I wish I'd read this exact article years ago so that I would have understood what was going on and had a way of talking about it.

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

If someone you know experienced this stuff from a supervisor, it’s workplace harassment regardless of what you personally think of her personality. There really isn’t a situation in which this stuff is appropriate.

But the whole point is that maybe the supervisor wasn't saying anything negative or invasive and the OP just looks for offense everywhere. For instance, the person OP reminds me of would take questions about her vegetarianism (do you eat fish?) as "criticizing her eating habits."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

I suppose it depends on the situation. Like a really clearcut example would be if a coworker said "Larlo grabbed me and tried to kiss me in the office yesterday." In that instance, even if you had never experienced that same thing, saying "that's not something I've experienced" communicates to your coworker that you don't believe her. You might argue that you just meant it literally -- you have not had that experience with Larlo. But she wasn't asking if you have had the same experience. She is telling you about being assaulted. In that case, it's definitely gaslighting to invalidate her experience, and you are making it less likely that she will try to tell someone else. People often try to confide in a friend or colleague before escalating to an authority figure.

In the case of harassing comments, it really could be a difference of opinion. Some people are more sensitive to some comments than others. Though what the OP describes is a pattern of inappropriate behavior, and that does sound like it rises to the level of harassing behavior. In that case, I do think it was gaslighting for colleagues to just tell her they hadn't experienced it or that it wasn't a big deal. If it was happening over and over, the fact that OP didn't like it and was upset about it indicates that it was no longer a matter of personal opinion -- a supervisor should not be making personal comments about a subordinate in that way, especially not over an extended period of time.

Unfortunately, many workplaces do not have particularly helpful HR services, and many don't have a GC at all. Even those that do can have cultural problems like this, and HR or the GC will simply reinforce the idea that . I do think there is some responsibility on colleagues to be willing to stand up for one another in these situations. Bullies and harassers only benefit if people take a passive approach to these issues.

In all of your example, telling your co-worker is not appropriate step. Why should co-worker validate one side of the story without listening to another side? What authority that co-worker have to question another party? If anything like you described happened, you should report it to HR or police, not your co-workers, and then accuse them of gaslighting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

I agree. And to be clear, I make a distinction between what the OP is describing and what is described in the article. If something derisive is said in a staff meeting and colleagues deny it happened or minimize it is something very different than being cornered by someone at a party who wants to tell you how terrible their sibling is even though you've never seen it or witnessed it yourself.

That said, I've seen a form of this where someone who was an assistant to a high-ranking individual in our organization would always insist that X person, who had a terrible reputation, was always nice to her. She didn't like it when it was pointed out that was almost certainly the case because of HER position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this blog post about "tribe gaslighting" and was kind of astounded because this EXACT thing has happened to me multiple times:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201811/gaslighting-tribe

Basically she is just talking about how groups will often gaslight on behalf of a narcissist, by refusing to acknowledge another person's experience with the narcissist. So they'll say things like "Oh, that's not my experience with her" or "I've never noticed him acting that way" instead of listening to what someone is saying.

I was in a workplace a few years back and this is exactly what happened. Our boss was incredibly inappropriate and boundary-violating with me. Stuff like: commenting on my personal life in the middle of staff meetings, criticizing my eating habits, making comments about how my clothes fit or how I wore my hair. Whenever I would bring it up with anyone else at work, they'd kind of shrug and say that they had never noticed it or that they didn't think that stuff was a big deal. It made me feel crazy and after I left that job I spent a lot of time thinking that I was the problem, that I was too sensitive and needed to get over stuff like this.

But this is what it was: tribe gaslighting. That boss was super inappropriate and probably should have been fired or, at a minimum, sent to an extensive training program to address this behavior. I can't believe I ever accepted any of it as normal.

Anyway, passing this along in case other people go through this. I wish I'd read this exact article years ago so that I would have understood what was going on and had a way of talking about it.

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

If someone you know experienced this stuff from a supervisor, it’s workplace harassment regardless of what you personally think of her personality. There really isn’t a situation in which this stuff is appropriate.

But the whole point is that maybe the supervisor wasn't saying anything negative or invasive and the OP just looks for offense everywhere. For instance, the person OP reminds me of would take questions about her vegetarianism (do you eat fish?) as "criticizing her eating habits."

OP here. To clarify, when I say this boss criticized my eating habits, I mean that I would show up to a meeting a couple minutes late and they would say said stuff like “We were just talking about your weird eating habits — too bad you weren’t here to defend yourself!” It was not a neutral question. And it was just one of many personal things they would bring up and then make fun of in front of others. They also made fun of my personal finances, my mental health, and my social life.

Honestly, I think at this point I am sensitive about all of this stuff, largely because this boss made me feel so self-conscious and defensive. I really wish I’d understood at the time how not okay it was, and had tried harder to get someone to do something about it. But when I talked to coworkers and they seemed really blasé about it, I figured I just needed to toughen up. In retrospect, I don’t think that was the right solution. This person was an abusive boss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

I suppose it depends on the situation. Like a really clearcut example would be if a coworker said "Larlo grabbed me and tried to kiss me in the office yesterday." In that instance, even if you had never experienced that same thing, saying "that's not something I've experienced" communicates to your coworker that you don't believe her. You might argue that you just meant it literally -- you have not had that experience with Larlo. But she wasn't asking if you have had the same experience. She is telling you about being assaulted. In that case, it's definitely gaslighting to invalidate her experience, and you are making it less likely that she will try to tell someone else. People often try to confide in a friend or colleague before escalating to an authority figure.

In the case of harassing comments, it really could be a difference of opinion. Some people are more sensitive to some comments than others. Though what the OP describes is a pattern of inappropriate behavior, and that does sound like it rises to the level of harassing behavior. In that case, I do think it was gaslighting for colleagues to just tell her they hadn't experienced it or that it wasn't a big deal. If it was happening over and over, the fact that OP didn't like it and was upset about it indicates that it was no longer a matter of personal opinion -- a supervisor should not be making personal comments about a subordinate in that way, especially not over an extended period of time.

Unfortunately, many workplaces do not have particularly helpful HR services, and many don't have a GC at all. Even those that do can have cultural problems like this, and HR or the GC will simply reinforce the idea that . I do think there is some responsibility on colleagues to be willing to stand up for one another in these situations. Bullies and harassers only benefit if people take a passive approach to these issues.

In all of your example, telling your co-worker is not appropriate step. Why should co-worker validate one side of the story without listening to another side? What authority that co-worker have to question another party? If anything like you described happened, you should report it to HR or police, not your co-workers, and then accuse them of gaslighting.

Yes, HR and the police, both of which are known to be very competent at resolving workplace harassment issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When this happened to me, I went to a lawyer who wrote to him. I was offered a year's severence and a glowing reference. I accepted. He committed suicide a year later after murdering a hooker.

I'm sorry, but I need the 15 to 20 sentence version of this. The 3 sentence version is leaving me with strange feelings.

#sammeeeeeeee

[Anonymous]

I guess I would just say it’s not your coworkers’ job to validate your experiences. GO TO HR or your boss’ boss or whatever. Or leave the organization if nothing is done. It’s just not gaslighting if your coworkers, who also have their own and different experiences, don’t see/hear what you’re seeing or hearing, or think you’re blowing something out of proportion when you think it’s valid. It’s just not their job.

I say this as someone who worked on a lot of internal matters and a LOT of it was people being uniquely sensitive, or airing personal grievances with managers to coworkers who then felt stuck in the middle. I think that is inappropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess I would just say it’s not your coworkers’ job to validate your experiences. GO TO HR or your boss’ boss or whatever. Or leave the organization if nothing is done. It’s just not gaslighting if your coworkers, who also have their own and different experiences, don’t see/hear what you’re seeing or hearing, or think you’re blowing something out of proportion when you think it’s valid. It’s just not their job.

I say this as someone who worked on a lot of internal matters and a LOT of it was people being uniquely sensitive, or airing personal grievances with managers to coworkers who then felt stuck in the middle. I think that is inappropriate.

OP here.

I think it's important to point out that the article is explicitly about dealing with narcissists, and how a group might facilitate a narcissist. I'm not sure the average work environment is a good metric for this. But in an abusive work environment, tribe gaslighting (or flying monkey syndrome, or whatever you want to call it) can make the abuse worse.

I'm not arguing that my coworkers should have validated my experiences in that job. I'm simply saying that I wish I had understood the dynamics described in this article at the time, which would have helped me to understand that my colleagues' refusal to acknowledge what was happening did not mean that it wasn't happening. I was a newer employee so when our boss started acting inappropriate with me, I felt unsure about it. There were several things that happened early on, right in the middle of meetings or in interactions with customers that sent up red flags, and I mentioned them to colleagues because I thought they were weird. But I was reassured that they were normal and not a problem. So instead of reporting the issue up the chain or looking for ways to leave the company, I stayed and the situation escalated until I was miserable. I did eventually report the problems up the chain and got some resolution, but it was too late for me to ever feel comfortable in that workplace again.

So I wish I'd been more aware of how these dynamics work because I think I might have been less likely to rely on my coworker's opinions and more likely to do just what you suggest -- report it up or leave. I should note that this workplace had neither an HR department nor an in-house legal department, so my options for reporting the behavior were really limited.

Anyway, I didn't post this so people could say "yes, gaslighting coworkers are terrible, get the pitchforks." I posted it because it was a really helpful description of an abusive work environment and I think if I'd read something like this around the time I was working at this place, I could have saved myself a lot of grief. I hope it's helpful to others.

[Anonymous]

If he's doing it in staff meetings, obviously they all saw it.

OP I would do something really memorable like, "Oh John! You are so SILLY! Giggle giggle. "Me and my docu drama again. Today on into the wild: Susan eats yogurt". Rolls eyes, shakes head, smiles, and goes back to eating. If he keeps it up, you say, "ANYway, are we here for a marketing meeting?"

Next time, tell him you are going to get a "offsides" flag and every time he does this, you are going to toss it down.

Third time, bring the flag to the meeting. Toss it if he is offsides. Not kidding.

People are not going to forget that. You are playing along as if you have a good sense of humor. But you are calling him out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is also known as the flying monkey phenomenon, based on the way the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz was always using her flying monkeys to torment her victims. Most narcissists have a good amount of personal charisma, and often the flying monkeys do not know they have have become proxies for abuse because they have been seduced by the narcissist's superficial charm, dishonesty, positional power, or whatever.

I want to know who the wicked witch is screwing. It has to be someone with power tolerating it,to have all these damn monkeys flying around. What did Dorothy or Toto ever do to deserve such a response ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is also known as the flying monkey phenomenon, based on the way the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz was always using her flying monkeys to torment her victims. Most narcissists have a good amount of personal charisma, and often the flying monkeys do not know they have have become proxies for abuse because they have been seduced by the narcissist's superficial charm, dishonesty, positional power, or whatever.

I want to know who the wicked witch is screwing. It has to be someone with power tolerating it,to have all these damn monkeys flying around. What did Dorothy or Toto ever do to deserve such a response ?

*WITHOUT power. Fixed that for you. The spouses that go along with the wicked witch/queen bee/flying monkeys mentality generally have zero balls. Since you asked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

I suppose it depends on the situation. Like a really clearcut example would be if a coworker said "Larlo grabbed me and tried to kiss me in the office yesterday." In that instance, even if you had never experienced that same thing, saying "that's not something I've experienced" communicates to your coworker that you don't believe her. You might argue that you just meant it literally -- you have not had that experience with Larlo. But she wasn't asking if you have had the same experience. She is telling you about being assaulted. In that case, it's definitely gaslighting to invalidate her experience, and you are making it less likely that she will try to tell someone else. People often try to confide in a friend or colleague before escalating to an authority figure.

In the case of harassing comments, it really could be a difference of opinion. Some people are more sensitive to some comments than others. Though what the OP describes is a pattern of inappropriate behavior, and that does sound like it rises to the level of harassing behavior. In that case, I do think it was gaslighting for colleagues to just tell her they hadn't experienced it or that it wasn't a big deal. If it was happening over and over, the fact that OP didn't like it and was upset about it indicates that it was no longer a matter of personal opinion -- a supervisor should not be making personal comments about a subordinate in that way, especially not over an extended period of time.

Unfortunately, many workplaces do not have particularly helpful HR services, and many don't have a GC at all. Even those that do can have cultural problems like this, and HR or the GC will simply reinforce the idea that . I do think there is some responsibility on colleagues to be willing to stand up for one another in these situations. Bullies and harassers only benefit if people take a passive approach to these issues.

In all of your example, telling your co-worker is not appropriate step. Why should co-worker validate one side of the story without listening to another side? What authority that co-worker have to question another party? If anything like you described happened, you should report it to HR or police, not your co-workers, and then accuse them of gaslighting.

Yes, HR and the police, both of which are known to be very competent at resolving workplace harassment issues.

So true!

[Anonymous]

As a manager, I've gotten so much better at screening for the kind of person who will come into a job and immediately stir up drama that exceeds the value they bring. Reading this forum has helped my radar for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, it happens here in family/relationship forums all the time

Reminds me of my former MIL who tried to hide or cover up everyone’s aspergers and constant mishaps and rude comments. FIl, both sons, all the uncles.

No that wasn’t a rude comment, they mean this. No that wasn’t his fault, it was the other driver. No, he didn’t get fired again, the boss never held training. No, we are glad they broke up, she was crazy. No, he didn’t mean to leave the knife out/bath filled/ front door open for the toddler, that was an honest mistake. No, we didn’t hear you talking to us in the car. No, it’s not his fault he packed the crystal ware in his checked in luggage, that should have worked. No it was an accident he hung the kid on the 12 food wall to do a pull-up and instead the kid slip down and broke his legs.

[Anonymous]

I went through that with my abusive xH. When we split, he got everyone on his side. Friends, his family, my family, our therapist. Convinced them all that I had a mental disorder. I expect he’ll do the same to our children when they’re older (he already has to a small degree)

I’m now very picky about who I let into my life.