I just learned about tribe gaslighting and more people should know about it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just read this blog post about "tribe gaslighting" and was kind of astounded because this EXACT thing has happened to me multiple times:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201811/gaslighting-tribe

Basically she is just talking about how groups will often gaslight on behalf of a narcissist, by refusing to acknowledge another person's experience with the narcissist. So they'll say things like "Oh, that's not my experience with her" or "I've never noticed him acting that way" instead of listening to what someone is saying.

I was in a workplace a few years back and this is exactly what happened. Our boss was incredibly inappropriate and boundary-violating with me. Stuff like: commenting on my personal life in the middle of staff meetings, criticizing my eating habits, making comments about how my clothes fit or how I wore my hair. Whenever I would bring it up with anyone else at work, they'd kind of shrug and say that they had never noticed it or that they didn't think that stuff was a big deal. It made me feel crazy and after I left that job I spent a lot of time thinking that I was the problem, that I was too sensitive and needed to get over stuff like this.

But this is what it was: tribe gaslighting. That boss was super inappropriate and probably should have been fired or, at a minimum, sent to an extensive training program to address this behavior. I can't believe I ever accepted any of it as normal.

Anyway, passing this along in case other people go through this. I wish I'd read this exact article years ago so that I would have understood what was going on and had a way of talking about it.

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

[Anonymous]

OP, this is also known as the flying monkey phenomenon, based on the way the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz was always using her flying monkeys to torment her victims. Most narcissists have a good amount of personal charisma, and often the flying monkeys do not know they have have become proxies for abuse because they have been seduced by the narcissist's superficial charm, dishonesty, positional power, or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this blog post about "tribe gaslighting" and was kind of astounded because this EXACT thing has happened to me multiple times:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201811/gaslighting-tribe

Basically she is just talking about how groups will often gaslight on behalf of a narcissist, by refusing to acknowledge another person's experience with the narcissist. So they'll say things like "Oh, that's not my experience with her" or "I've never noticed him acting that way" instead of listening to what someone is saying.

I was in a workplace a few years back and this is exactly what happened. Our boss was incredibly inappropriate and boundary-violating with me. Stuff like: commenting on my personal life in the middle of staff meetings, criticizing my eating habits, making comments about how my clothes fit or how I wore my hair. Whenever I would bring it up with anyone else at work, they'd kind of shrug and say that they had never noticed it or that they didn't think that stuff was a big deal. It made me feel crazy and after I left that job I spent a lot of time thinking that I was the problem, that I was too sensitive and needed to get over stuff like this.

But this is what it was: tribe gaslighting. That boss was super inappropriate and probably should have been fired or, at a minimum, sent to an extensive training program to address this behavior. I can't believe I ever accepted any of it as normal.

Anyway, passing this along in case other people go through this. I wish I'd read this exact article years ago so that I would have understood what was going on and had a way of talking about it.

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

If someone you know experienced this stuff from a supervisor, it’s workplace harassment regardless of what you personally think of her personality. There really isn’t a situation in which this stuff is appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing about bullies is that they’re very careful about choosing who to pick on. I’ve known people who did treat different people very differently. If the other people witness the behavior and then deny it, that’s gaslighting. On the other hand, they may truly not be seeing that side of the person.

Why do you have to witness a behavior in order to believe someone telling you about abuse? That’s a very troubling attitude. Think how awful it would be to be bullied/harassed, and then disbelieved when you try to tell people what is happening. That’s definitely gaslighting.

How would you propose someone in this situation address the problem, if not by trying to tell someone about it?

[Anonymous]

They can tell you but someone can’t be a witness (Other than staying they were told about it- so it’s hearsay) if they didn’t see or experience the behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They can tell you but someone can’t be a witness (Other than staying they were told about it- so it’s hearsay) if they didn’t see or experience the behavior.

Uh, you can have human interactions that are not admissible as evidence in a court of law. You know that, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this blog post about "tribe gaslighting" and was kind of astounded because this EXACT thing has happened to me multiple times:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201811/gaslighting-tribe

Basically she is just talking about how groups will often gaslight on behalf of a narcissist, by refusing to acknowledge another person's experience with the narcissist. So they'll say things like "Oh, that's not my experience with her" or "I've never noticed him acting that way" instead of listening to what someone is saying.

I was in a workplace a few years back and this is exactly what happened. Our boss was incredibly inappropriate and boundary-violating with me. Stuff like: commenting on my personal life in the middle of staff meetings, criticizing my eating habits, making comments about how my clothes fit or how I wore my hair. Whenever I would bring it up with anyone else at work, they'd kind of shrug and say that they had never noticed it or that they didn't think that stuff was a big deal. It made me feel crazy and after I left that job I spent a lot of time thinking that I was the problem, that I was too sensitive and needed to get over stuff like this.

But this is what it was: tribe gaslighting. That boss was super inappropriate and probably should have been fired or, at a minimum, sent to an extensive training program to address this behavior. I can't believe I ever accepted any of it as normal.

Anyway, passing this along in case other people go through this. I wish I'd read this exact article years ago so that I would have understood what was going on and had a way of talking about it.

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

Maybe OP is the person you know and she is posting here because when she tries to talk to you, you dismiss her for being paranoid and over sensitive.

[Anonymous]

Ugh, enough with the gaslighting already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, enough with the gaslighting already.

What gaslighting?

[Anonymous]

Eh, I can imagine someone I know writing this post, and the truth is she really is just paranoid and oversensitive.

And, there you have it folks, here's our token DCUM gaslighter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yup. They gaslight to protect the abuser and avoid getting fired.

Sounds like the White House to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is also known as the flying monkey phenomenon, based on the way the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz was always using her flying monkeys to torment her victims. Most narcissists have a good amount of personal charisma, and often the flying monkeys do not know they have have become proxies for abuse because they have been seduced by the narcissist's superficial charm, dishonesty, positional power, or whatever.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is also known as the flying monkey phenomenon, based on the way the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz was always using her flying monkeys to torment her victims. Most narcissists have a good amount of personal charisma, and often the flying monkeys do not know they have have become proxies for abuse because they have been seduced by the narcissist's superficial charm, dishonesty, positional power, or whatever.

+1

OP here. Thanks, I've never heard of this! It sucks. But wow does it help describe what I went through in that job.

[Anonymous]

I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure I understand. If they haven’t observed this, why is their saying “that’s not something I’ve experienced” gaslighting? I mean—if I know someone who’s always funny and kind, and someone tells me they are rude and rage-filled, I’m not lying if I say “he’s not that way with me.” Or if I don’t think certain comments are a big deal—it’s a subjective statement that I don’t think they are a big deal. You do, so that’s an issue, but it’s not wrong if I say I don’t think they are.

You don’t need validation from coworkers if you don’t like what someone is saying. HR or the general counsel should/would take it seriously.

I suppose it depends on the situation. Like a really clearcut example would be if a coworker said "Larlo grabbed me and tried to kiss me in the office yesterday." In that instance, even if you had never experienced that same thing, saying "that's not something I've experienced" communicates to your coworker that you don't believe her. You might argue that you just meant it literally -- you have not had that experience with Larlo. But she wasn't asking if you have had the same experience. She is telling you about being assaulted. In that case, it's definitely gaslighting to invalidate her experience, and you are making it less likely that she will try to tell someone else. People often try to confide in a friend or colleague before escalating to an authority figure.

In the case of harassing comments, it really could be a difference of opinion. Some people are more sensitive to some comments than others. Though what the OP describes is a pattern of inappropriate behavior, and that does sound like it rises to the level of harassing behavior. In that case, I do think it was gaslighting for colleagues to just tell her they hadn't experienced it or that it wasn't a big deal. If it was happening over and over, the fact that OP didn't like it and was upset about it indicates that it was no longer a matter of personal opinion -- a supervisor should not be making personal comments about a subordinate in that way, especially not over an extended period of time.

Unfortunately, many workplaces do not have particularly helpful HR services, and many don't have a GC at all. Even those that do can have cultural problems like this, and HR or the GC will simply reinforce the idea that . I do think there is some responsibility on colleagues to be willing to stand up for one another in these situations. Bullies and harassers only benefit if people take a passive approach to these issues.