How forgiving should I be of my friend dealing with infertility?

[Anonymous]

Being irritable and angry is a hallmark sign of depression.you at least owe it to her, since you are her friend to talk about how her lashing out affects you. If you drop her fine, but at least talk first. Also... being infertile over 40 is it’s own special hell- because the possibility of never having kids is real. Maybe some compassion as you confront her about how she is acting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Insult” you how? If it’s as bad as you say and you aren’t just being sensitive and self centered seems like she doesn’t want you as a friend.

It's hard to tell without more information about what you consider an insult.

Since your friend is in pain -- infertility ranks up there with cancer in terms of how difficult and socially isolating it is, because literally people cannot understand how it feels unless they've been there -- I suggest that you dig deep and try and see if you being more present to her could help. Maybe she is lashing out because she isn't allowed to talk about what she feels, or because it's so painful she can't bear to put it into words. If you could try to see the friend you know and love behind this and tell her, I know this really hurts and sucks and is so unfair. How can I be there? If that doesn't help her see you as on her side, then maybe you need to put a little space. But it honestly is very tough, so just think about the fact that her non-ideal behavior is probably a cry for help. Depends how much you care about her but if she really is such a close friend I think she deserves a little more than this.

BS. Infertility doesn't rank with cancer. Plus, how long has her friend been struggling with infertility? If she just started 2 years ago, well, what does she expect, you defy nature and then you have a right to be mad about it? I don't think so. If she started 10 years ago, she would have accepted it by now. Being rude and nasty is never ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Insult” you how? If it’s as bad as you say and you aren’t just being sensitive and self centered seems like she doesn’t want you as a friend.

It's hard to tell without more information about what you consider an insult.

Since your friend is in pain -- infertility ranks up there with cancer in terms of how difficult and socially isolating it is, because literally people cannot understand how it feels unless they've been there -- I suggest that you dig deep and try and see if you being more present to her could help. Maybe she is lashing out because she isn't allowed to talk about what she feels, or because it's so painful she can't bear to put it into words. If you could try to see the friend you know and love behind this and tell her, I know this really hurts and sucks and is so unfair. How can I be there? If that doesn't help her see you as on her side, then maybe you need to put a little space. But it honestly is very tough, so just think about the fact that her non-ideal behavior is probably a cry for help. Depends how much you care about her but if she really is such a close friend I think she deserves a little more than this.

Did you really just compare infertility with cancer?

https://healthypsych.com/coping-with-the-stress-of-infertility-5-best-practices/
"Psychological research shows that a diagnosis of infertility is as stressful as a diagnosis of cancer. People struggle, often quietly for years, with depression and anxiety due to their prolonged state of infertility. This leads to social isolation, which further exacerbates existing anxiety and depression. Because infertility is invisible, it can become a secret, which can lead to feelings of shame, guilt and personal failure."

https://apracticalwedding.com/infertility-worse-than-my-cancer/
"Infertility on the other hand, has been far worse. There are plenty of sources that will tell you that the stress levels of women with infertility are the same as those of women with cancer, AIDS, or heart disease. But they don’t tell you why that is the case. Having had both, I now have a pretty good idea of why. While most women with cancer don’t have it as easy as I did (and it’s not really ever fair to compare diagnoses), having experienced how people treated my cancer, compared with how they’ve reacted to my inability to conceive has taught me a thing or two about stress and the isolation of infertility."

That is also BS, what psychological research? Where is data? Anecdotal at best. The other is from PracticalWedding?! is this a joke to you?

[Anonymous]

OP,

If you're not a troll, can you learn to place all relevant data points in the first post, in bullet form if need be, so that people can give informed advice?

Your "friend" sounds awful to begin with, and now she's suffering, it's hard for people to muster sympathy. Too bad.

I suggest you gently fade away.

[Anonymous]

Goodness, OP. Your friend is depressed and going through probably the darkest time in her life. I have friends that were wonderful friends while we were struggling with infertility, even if they couldn't relate. They sympathized and offered compassion, volunteered specific help, and asked questions without trying to "fix" things. If this is truly a best friend, that is how you should act. It is not about you or your friend relationship right now, it's about supporting someone who needs help from the people closest to her.

THAT SAID, I also know people who were toxic people and traumatic situations let the toxic behavior get out of control. Those people are worth cutting off. Stress and trauma does not justify someone being abusive. If this behavior predates her infertility, I find it hard to believe you've never experienced it before if you've known her since childhood. But if you truly think this is who she is and it's a fundamental character flaw, then you need to decide whether to cut ties with her and lose a presumably 30+ year relationship. I did that with a childhood friend and it was a true loss, but was necessary.

Whatever you do, be kind. She doesn't deserve to be ghosted, but I think the letter idea is good. Let her know that you love her and want to be there, but you feel like a punching bag and you need space. Maybe that will be the push to get her into therapy or in a support group?

[Anonymous]

I've been through periods in my life where I have treated my friends and family poorly due to my own struggles (infertility and divorce being the largest), and I really do look back and feel bad about it. But it's not on purpose. I repeat, it's not on purpose. She is not trying to be rude and nasty, she is coming off that way because otherwise, she'd probably be a sobbing mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a tough one. As someone who dealt with infertility the thought of NEVER having a child can really wear on you. Also if she is doing IVF or other treatment the hormones can literally make some people crazy.

That said, you don’t need to take abuse from someone. I would try to be there for her however you can but it’s also fine to put a little distance between you. Maybe texting is easier than going out to eat, or just make yourself available every other month for a couple hours.

FWIW, my mom is a really negative person and complains about everything. Going to any restaurant with her is painful because something, actually many things, are wrong in her opinion. I just suck it up and have an extra glass of wine.

My neighbor was insane when she did fertility drugs. She completely lost her filter and her ability to read cues of people getting uncomfortable, as well as he ability to just stop talking.

That lost filter allowed all of her internal monologues to come out for all to hear.

When you are talking about a nice or fun person, it means they become a little more sensitive or a little bit outrageous. My neighbor has a fun girl in general, and she became super shocking, scandalous and often funny as hell.

I would imagine if she is generally a more difficult person, that loss of filter would result in something like you are describing, a crazy mean person who can't stop complaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“Insult” you how? If it’s as bad as you say and you aren’t just being sensitive and self centered seems like she doesn’t want you as a friend.

It's hard to tell without more information about what you consider an insult.

Since your friend is in pain -- infertility ranks up there with cancer in terms of how difficult and socially isolating it is, because literally people cannot understand how it feels unless they've been there -- I suggest that you dig deep and try and see if you being more present to her could help. Maybe she is lashing out because she isn't allowed to talk about what she feels, or because it's so painful she can't bear to put it into words. If you could try to see the friend you know and love behind this and tell her, I know this really hurts and sucks and is so unfair. How can I be there? If that doesn't help her see you as on her side, then maybe you need to put a little space. But it honestly is very tough, so just think about the fact that her non-ideal behavior is probably a cry for help. Depends how much you care about her but if she really is such a close friend I think she deserves a little more than this.

Did you really just compare infertility with cancer?

https://healthypsych.com/coping-with-the-stress-of-infertility-5-best-practices/
"Psychological research shows that a diagnosis of infertility is as stressful as a diagnosis of cancer. People struggle, often quietly for years, with depression and anxiety due to their prolonged state of infertility. This leads to social isolation, which further exacerbates existing anxiety and depression. Because infertility is invisible, it can become a secret, which can lead to feelings of shame, guilt and personal failure."

https://apracticalwedding.com/infertility-worse-than-my-cancer/
"Infertility on the other hand, has been far worse. There are plenty of sources that will tell you that the stress levels of women with infertility are the same as those of women with cancer, AIDS, or heart disease. But they don’t tell you why that is the case. Having had both, I now have a pretty good idea of why. While most women with cancer don’t have it as easy as I did (and it’s not really ever fair to compare diagnoses), having experienced how people treated my cancer, compared with how they’ve reacted to my inability to conceive has taught me a thing or two about stress and the isolation of infertility."

That is also BS, what psychological research? Where is data? Anecdotal at best. The other is from PracticalWedding?! is this a joke to you?

The idea that "cancer" is one thing and can be compared to something else like "infertility" is ridiculous. Cancer encompasses a wide range of diseases, some of which are easily treated, some of which require a long, painful battle to survive and result in infertility, and some of which are fatal. For some people infertility means not getting pregnant right away, for others it means they had to take Clomid, for others it means recurrent miscarriage, and for others it means they can never conceive or carry a child, full stop. Each person's situation is different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That is also BS, what psychological research? Where is data? Anecdotal at best. The other is from PracticalWedding?! is this a joke to you?

NP. This really isn't a debated point anymore. There is plenty of medical literature on infertility causing high levels of depression and anxiety.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8142988

Abstract
To compare the psychological symptoms of infertile women with patients with other chronic medical conditions, subjects completed the Symptom Checklist-90 (Revised) (SCL-90R), a standardized, validated and widely used psychological questionnaire, prior to enrolling in a group behavioral treatment program. All subjects were female and the totals in each program were as follows: 149 with infertility, 136 with chronic pain, 22 undergoing cardiac rehabilitation, 93 with cancer, 77 with hypertension, and 11 with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-positive status. The infertile women had global symptom scores equivalent to the cancer, cardiac rehabilitation and hypertension patients, but lower scores than the chronic pain and HIV-positive patients (p < 0.0001 and p < 0.02 respectively). The anxiety and depression scores of the infertile women were significantly lower than chronic pain patients but not statistically different from the other groups. The results suggest that the psychological symptoms associated with infertility are similar to those associated with other serious medical conditions. Therefore, standard psychosocial interventions for serious medical illness should also be applied in infertility treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6016043/.

a 2004 study 3 utilized a structured psychiatric interview. A total of 122 women were interviewed prior to their first infertility clinic visit and the results were striking; 40% of women were diagnosed as having anxiety, depression, or both. Subsequent research has supported these findings. Volgsten and colleagues4 reported a 31% prevalence of psychiatric symptoms, the most common of which was major depression. In a large Danish study of 42 000 women5 who underwent ART treatment and were screened for depression prior to treatment, 35% screened positive. In another recent study of 174 women undergoing infertility treatment, 39% met the criteria for major depressive disorder.6 In one of the largest studies to date,7 352 women and 274 men were assessed in infertility clinics in northern California. It was determined that 56% of the women and 32% of the men reported significant symptoms of depression and 76% of the women and 61% of the men scored reported significant symptoms of anxiety. Not surprisingly, recent research documents that infertility patients consistently report significantly more symptoms of anxiety and depression than fertile individuals.8 Finally, in a recent concerning study on suicidality in 106 women with infertility, 9.4% of the women reported having suicidal thoughts or attempts.9

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been through periods in my life where I have treated my friends and family poorly due to my own struggles (infertility and divorce being the largest), and I really do look back and feel bad about it. But it's not on purpose. I repeat, it's not on purpose. She is not trying to be rude and nasty, she is coming off that way because otherwise, she'd probably be a sobbing mess.

This is true. I deal with infertility by getting very sad and being a sobbing mess. I see other people get angry and defensive. Different ways of dealing with the same emotions.

[Anonymous]

highly recommend you DO NOT ghost her or walk away. but do set boundaries and take care of yourself so you have something to draw from when with her. also suggest maybe your friend needs a counselor or resolve group to help her and in turn help everyone around her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is also BS, what psychological research? Where is data? Anecdotal at best. The other is from PracticalWedding?! is this a joke to you?

NP. This really isn't a debated point anymore. There is plenty of medical literature on infertility causing high levels of depression and anxiety.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8142988

Abstract
To compare the psychological symptoms of infertile women with patients with other chronic medical conditions, subjects completed the Symptom Checklist-90 (Revised) (SCL-90R), a standardized, validated and widely used psychological questionnaire, prior to enrolling in a group behavioral treatment program. All subjects were female and the totals in each program were as follows: 149 with infertility, 136 with chronic pain, 22 undergoing cardiac rehabilitation, 93 with cancer, 77 with hypertension, and 11 with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-positive status. The infertile women had global symptom scores equivalent to the cancer, cardiac rehabilitation and hypertension patients, but lower scores than the chronic pain and HIV-positive patients (p < 0.0001 and p < 0.02 respectively). The anxiety and depression scores of the infertile women were significantly lower than chronic pain patients but not statistically different from the other groups. The results suggest that the psychological symptoms associated with infertility are similar to those associated with other serious medical conditions. Therefore, standard psychosocial interventions for serious medical illness should also be applied in infertility treatment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6016043/.

a 2004 study 3 utilized a structured psychiatric interview. A total of 122 women were interviewed prior to their first infertility clinic visit and the results were striking; 40% of women were diagnosed as having anxiety, depression, or both. Subsequent research has supported these findings. Volgsten and colleagues4 reported a 31% prevalence of psychiatric symptoms, the most common of which was major depression. In a large Danish study of 42 000 women5 who underwent ART treatment and were screened for depression prior to treatment, 35% screened positive. In another recent study of 174 women undergoing infertility treatment, 39% met the criteria for major depressive disorder.6 In one of the largest studies to date,7 352 women and 274 men were assessed in infertility clinics in northern California. It was determined that 56% of the women and 32% of the men reported significant symptoms of depression and 76% of the women and 61% of the men scored reported significant symptoms of anxiety. Not surprisingly, recent research documents that infertility patients consistently report significantly more symptoms of anxiety and depression than fertile individuals.8 Finally, in a recent concerning study on suicidality in 106 women with infertility, 9.4% of the women reported having suicidal thoughts or attempts.9

Sure depression and anxiety, but comparing it to cancer? A. my basal skin cell carcinoma isn't that big of a deal. My aunts' lung cancer and friend's brain cancer was deadly. Few months. left to live. Fertility is about choices, you need to make a choice based on your diagnosis. To have a kid, try, adopt, etc...Most terminal cancers don't offer you a choice.

[Anonymous]

time to ghost that b*tch till she comes back down to earth

[Anonymous]

Is she really experiencing infertility? She has been married a year and she's 40-- sounds normal to me. Sounds like she may be a major drama queen and she'll be pregnant in months. If you are feeling generous and want to keep the friendship, I'd figure out ways to spend time with her in a space where you can relate. Spa? Shopping? But if she still can't be decent to you, suggest she talk to a therapist and fade on out.

[Anonymous]

I'm a big believer in that just because someone is going through something extremely difficult or painful, they don't get to be a complete a-hole to me more than twice.

They get when it happens to be a horrible person towards me and let me be supportive and not say a peep. Then they get a second opportunity to let it all out again and after that, I just don't allow myself to be the one upon which they sh!t.