Napa Valley wine train racism and the issue of "white space"

[Anonymous]

They were warned not to be loud and obnoxious. They continued to do so, by their own admittance. They were kicked off the train.

Same would happen for a group of rowdy teenagers. Warn about the rules, and if people don't comply, remove them.

[Anonymous]

I guarantee the same thing would have happened if the group was white. The woman who complained had an issue with fun and loud. She was expecting a civil wine tasting and got a late night bar scene.

I am so tired of all issues against blacks being blamed on race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should be able to enjoy activities, if they observe exisiting social mores. If you act loud and obnoxious - then no.

The problem is that:

A) "Social mores" in this context is synonymous with "White social mores" and

B) Other people on the train at the same time claim the women were no louder than any other group

There isn't a problem with white social mores. I don't go into black baptist churches and expect them to praise as they do a a quiet white Presbyterian. When in Rome dude.


Maybe they were loud and annoying - maybe they weren't. Not worth speculating about.

Possibly the most racist thing I have read on DCUM and that is saying something

Yes, it sounds like that one poster thinks that black people should only act "black" when they're off with their own but the rest of the time they should make sure that all us fragile white anglo-saxon protestants are not made to feel uncomfortable.

it is rude to be loud and obnoxious in a public setting no matter what the color of the skin of the individuals involved. It sound like you are the one with a racial issue.

There was a difference of opinion as to whether they were rude or obnoxious. There are people who were on the train who said they weren't. So unless I see video, I'm not going to say for sure how I would feel if I had been on that train. Second, why do "quiet white Presbyterians" get to choose the tone for the wine train? Are "black baptists" only welcome in public if they act like "quiet white Presbyterians"? And "when in Rome" suggests that you think that the "quite white Presbyterians" ought to control how everyone else behaves on the wine train.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, I don't like to go to movie theaters with blacks since they talk so much.

It's not worth shit - who cares what you like.

You go patronize the cinemas where they talk and yack it up the whole time.

Ok - but serious question....

Since when do social norms have a race? When do we have just 'social norms'.

Using the above example - is not talking during a movie a 'white social norm'? Is talking during a movie a 'black social norm'? When do we get to the point where we can just all go enjoy a movie and act in a way that is mindful of the other people in a room?

And to the PP, it is worth shit what that person likes. They paid for the movie, just like the other people in theater. It would be nice if people of all stripes just took 5 goddamn seconds to think about something other than themselves and think about how they affect others.

We aren't going to get anywhere unless we can find some common ground and a common behavior so that we can all enjoy a movie, together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guarantee the same thing would have happened if the group was white. The woman who complained had an issue with fun and loud. She was expecting a civil wine tasting and got a late night bar scene.

I am so tired of all issues against blacks being blamed on race.

Wyoming awaits you and your fatigue with people of color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, I don't like to go to movie theaters with blacks since they talk so much.

It's not worth shit - who cares what you like.

You go patronize the cinemas where they talk and yack it up the whole time.

Ok - but serious question....

Since when do social norms have a race? When do we have just 'social norms'.

Using the above example - is not talking during a movie a 'white social norm'? Is talking during a movie a 'black social norm'? When do we get to the point where we can just all go enjoy a movie and act in a way that is mindful of the other people in a room?

And to the PP, it is worth shit what that person likes. They paid for the movie, just like the other people in theater. It would be nice if people of all stripes just took 5 goddamn seconds to think about something other than themselves and think about how they affect others.

We aren't going to get anywhere unless we can find some common ground and a common behavior so that we can all enjoy a movie, together.

Oh please the PP could be in a dead quiet theatre and still come complaining that the blacks made the movie-going experience awful with their constant popcorn chewing.

[Anonymous]

I have been on this train. It is nice, not fancy, but the tables are very close together since it is a train.
I am not making a judgment since I was not there.
I can say that I don’t have a great deal of patience for overly loud parties in public places where “loudness” is not necessary.
Stadiums, concerts and game venues - scream all you want.
Restaurants, movie theaters, museums, and even grocery stores - show some restraint.

And, I guess we can add “white space” to the PC dictionary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should be able to enjoy activities, if they observe exisiting social mores. If you act loud and obnoxious - then no.

The problem is that:

A) "Social mores" in this context is synonymous with "White social mores" and

B) Other people on the train at the same time claim the women were no louder than any other group

There isn't a problem with white social mores. I don't go into black baptist churches and expect them to praise as they do a a quiet white Presbyterian. When in Rome dude.


Maybe they were loud and annoying - maybe they weren't. Not worth speculating about.

Possibly the most racist thing I have read on DCUM and that is saying something

Yes, it sounds like that one poster thinks that black people should only act "black" when they're off with their own but the rest of the time they should make sure that all us fragile white anglo-saxon protestants are not made to feel uncomfortable.

it is rude to be loud and obnoxious in a public setting no matter what the color of the skin of the individuals involved. It sound like you are the one with a racial issue.

There was a difference of opinion as to whether they were rude or obnoxious. There are people who were on the train who said they weren't. So unless I see video, I'm not going to say for sure how I would feel if I had been on that train. Second, why do "quiet white Presbyterians" get to choose the tone for the wine train? Are "black baptists" only welcome in public if they act like "quiet white Presbyterians"? And "when in Rome" suggests that you think that the "quite white Presbyterians" ought to control how everyone else behaves on the wine train.

How fucking stupid are you? It's an analogy. Presbyterians don't specifically relate to the wine train. You must have blown your SAT's...
I have never been on said train, but it's Napa... So, anyone equating this to a" booze cruise" probably hasn't visited this area. You don't get to come into someone else's home and dictate customs. You don't go to Japan and leave your shoes on. Well, maybe some Americans do and that's why we aren't always a welcome sight in some places. You don't get to go sit in the quiet car of the train and make ruckus. It has nothing to do with race.
And no- I wouldn't wander into a boisterous baptist congregation ( white or black) and expect them to pipe down so I could quietly pray. Their house. Their rules. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Now, whether these women actually behaved in a way that should have gotten them kicked off the train.... who knows?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, I don't like to go to movie theaters with blacks since they talk so much.

It's not worth shit - who cares what you like.

You go patronize the cinemas where they talk and yack it up the whole time.

Ok - but serious question....

Since when do social norms have a race? When do we have just 'social norms'.

Using the above example - is not talking during a movie a 'white social norm'? Is talking during a movie a 'black social norm'? When do we get to the point where we can just all go enjoy a movie and act in a way that is mindful of the other people in a room?

And to the PP, it is worth shit what that person likes. They paid for the movie, just like the other people in theater. It would be nice if people of all stripes just took 5 goddamn seconds to think about something other than themselves and think about how they affect others.

We aren't going to get anywhere unless we can find some common ground and a common behavior so that we can all enjoy a movie, together.

Oh please the PP could be in a dead quiet theatre and still come complaining that the blacks made the movie-going experience awful with their constant popcorn chewing.

Certainly, there are people who will complain about black people simply for the sin of being black. But the question still stands, when and where do we find some common ground on social behavior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it's worth, I don't like to go to movie theaters with blacks since they talk so much.

It's not worth shit - who cares what you like.

You go patronize the cinemas where they talk and yack it up the whole time.

Ok - but serious question....

Since when do social norms have a race? When do we have just 'social norms'.

Using the above example - is not talking during a movie a 'white social norm'? Is talking during a movie a 'black social norm'? When do we get to the point where we can just all go enjoy a movie and act in a way that is mindful of the other people in a room?

And to the PP, it is worth shit what that person likes. They paid for the movie, just like the other people in theater. It would be nice if people of all stripes just took 5 goddamn seconds to think about something other than themselves and think about how they affect others.

We aren't going to get anywhere unless we can find some common ground and a common behavior so that we can all enjoy a movie, together.

Oh please the PP could be in a dead quiet theatre and still come complaining that the blacks made the movie-going experience awful with their constant popcorn chewing.

Certainly, there are people who will complain about black people simply for the sin of being black. But the question still stands, when and where do we find some common ground on social behavior?

When?
That one day in the distant future when we finally come to respect other people and cultures as opposed to vilifying them.
Where?
Probably not on this planet - may happen on some galaxy class Federation starship in the Gamma quadrant but again it won't be anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guarantee the same thing would have happened if the group was white. The woman who complained had an issue with fun and loud. She was expecting a civil wine tasting and got a late night bar scene.

I am so tired of all issues against blacks being blamed on race.

"WAAAAAAAAAAH. I don't like having to think about difficult, intractable matters that affect the lives of fellow citizens. WAAAAAAAH. I don't want to have to reconcile the fact that I didn't earn everything I had due to the fortune of being born (i.) the right ethnicity in (ii.) the wealthiest country on earth in the history of the world. WAAAAAAAAAAAH. Why won't someone think of my feelings? I'm so oppressed. WAAAAAAAAH."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should be able to enjoy activities, if they observe exisiting social mores. If you act loud and obnoxious - then no.

The problem is that:

A) "Social mores" in this context is synonymous with "White social mores" and

B) Other people on the train at the same time claim the women were no louder than any other group

There isn't a problem with white social mores. I don't go into black baptist churches and expect them to praise as they do a a quiet white Presbyterian. When in Rome dude.


Maybe they were loud and annoying - maybe they weren't. Not worth speculating about.

Possibly the most racist thing I have read on DCUM and that is saying something

Yes, it sounds like that one poster thinks that black people should only act "black" when they're off with their own but the rest of the time they should make sure that all us fragile white anglo-saxon protestants are not made to feel uncomfortable.

it is rude to be loud and obnoxious in a public setting no matter what the color of the skin of the individuals involved. It sound like you are the one with a racial issue.

There was a difference of opinion as to whether they were rude or obnoxious. There are people who were on the train who said they weren't. So unless I see video, I'm not going to say for sure how I would feel if I had been on that train. Second, why do "quiet white Presbyterians" get to choose the tone for the wine train? Are "black baptists" only welcome in public if they act like "quiet white Presbyterians"? And "when in Rome" suggests that you think that the "quite white Presbyterians" ought to control how everyone else behaves on the wine train.

How fucking stupid are you? It's an analogy. Presbyterians don't specifically relate to the wine train. You must have blown your SAT's...
I have never been on said train, but it's Napa... So, anyone equating this to a" booze cruise" probably hasn't visited this area. You don't get to come into someone else's home and dictate customs. You don't go to Japan and leave your shoes on. Well, maybe some Americans do and that's why we aren't always a welcome sight in some places. You don't get to go sit in the quiet car of the train and make ruckus. It has nothing to do with race.
And no- I wouldn't wander into a boisterous baptist congregation ( white or black) and expect them to pipe down so I could quietly pray. Their house. Their rules. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Now, whether these women actually behaved in a way that should have gotten them kicked off the train.... who knows?

Did well on my SATs thank you. . My point is that black baptist churches are seen culturally as the oddity while the behavior in white Anglo-Saxon churches is seen as the norm. I think it's important to ask why WASP behavioral norms are expected to be the standard for public places. Your analogy suggests that you think the train is "their house" (as in white Protestants' house) and therefore "their rules" should govern behavior and too bad for anyone who doesn't share the same culture. At least that's how your analogy comes across. Maybe you don't intend it to be interpreted that way but insulting my intelligence (which I find amusing) doesn't help convince me of your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should be able to enjoy activities, if they observe exisiting social mores. If you act loud and obnoxious - then no.

The problem is that:

A) "Social mores" in this context is synonymous with "White social mores" and

B) Other people on the train at the same time claim the women were no louder than any other group

There isn't a problem with white social mores. I don't go into black baptist churches and expect them to praise as they do a a quiet white Presbyterian. When in Rome dude.


Maybe they were loud and annoying - maybe they weren't. Not worth speculating about.

Possibly the most racist thing I have read on DCUM and that is saying something

To me it says you haven't read much on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should be able to enjoy activities, if they observe exisiting social mores. If you act loud and obnoxious - then no.

The problem is that:

A) "Social mores" in this context is synonymous with "White social mores" and

B) Other people on the train at the same time claim the women were no louder than any other group

There isn't a problem with white social mores. I don't go into black baptist churches and expect them to praise as they do a a quiet white Presbyterian. When in Rome dude.


Maybe they were loud and annoying - maybe they weren't. Not worth speculating about.

Possibly the most racist thing I have read on DCUM and that is saying something

Yes, it sounds like that one poster thinks that black people should only act "black" when they're off with their own but the rest of the time they should make sure that all us fragile white anglo-saxon protestants are not made to feel uncomfortable.

it is rude to be loud and obnoxious in a public setting no matter what the color of the skin of the individuals involved. It sound like you are the one with a racial issue.

There was a difference of opinion as to whether they were rude or obnoxious. There are people who were on the train who said they weren't. So unless I see video, I'm not going to say for sure how I would feel if I had been on that train. Second, why do "quiet white Presbyterians" get to choose the tone for the wine train? Are "black baptists" only welcome in public if they act like "quiet white Presbyterians"? And "when in Rome" suggests that you think that the "quite white Presbyterians" ought to control how everyone else behaves on the wine train.

How fucking stupid are you? It's an analogy. Presbyterians don't specifically relate to the wine train. You must have blown your SAT's...
I have never been on said train, but it's Napa... So, anyone equating this to a" booze cruise" probably hasn't visited this area. You don't get to come into someone else's home and dictate customs. You don't go to Japan and leave your shoes on. Well, maybe some Americans do and that's why we aren't always a welcome sight in some places. You don't get to go sit in the quiet car of the train and make ruckus. It has nothing to do with race.
And no- I wouldn't wander into a boisterous baptist congregation ( white or black) and expect them to pipe down so I could quietly pray. Their house. Their rules. Why is that so hard to grasp?
Now, whether these women actually behaved in a way that should have gotten them kicked off the train.... who knows?

Did well on my SATs thank you. . My point is that black baptist churches are seen culturally as the oddity while the behavior in white Anglo-Saxon churches is seen as the norm. I think it's important to ask why WASP behavioral norms are expected to be the standard for public places. Your analogy suggests that you think the train is "their house" (as in white Protestants' house) and therefore "their rules" should govern behavior and too bad for anyone who doesn't share the same culture. At least that's how your analogy comes across. Maybe you don't intend it to be interpreted that way but insulting my intelligence (which I find amusing) doesn't help convince me of your point.

I have cast no judgement in either post about how congregants worship and which is more normal. I couldn't care less, but I regret the analogy because it has been such an obvious distraction for some people. I imagine the cultural norm of this train has been established by whoever owns and runs it, and has been observed by the people who have previously patronized it. Now obviously if other groups behaved the same ( as these ladies) , but had a different racial make up and were allowed to stay- that's some racist bullshit... That isn't clear here.
My point is you don't get to go into an established social situation, disrupt it, and expect a good outcome.

[Anonymous]

Not everything that happens to black people is because of racism. Sometimes, it is just their own bad behavior. Jumping on the racism bandwagon every time something happens does a real disservice to actual acts of racism.