Who is wrong here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, sorry but I think you were wrong. I know how disgusting it is to stay in a place such as you describe. My mother was completely unable to clean for the last years of her life and she would neither allow us to do it nor allow me to get her a cleaning service. Gross, yes. But, her house, her stuff, her decision. My only option was whether I was going to visit, and, if so for how long and under what circumstances.

Problem is that when an elderly person ends up living in a mess that can make them sick and they are demonstrating that they are unable to care for themselves, eventually social services comes in when the neighbors start complaining, and usually, the elderly person isn't going to like being told what to do by strangers, either. Then everyone throws up their arms and declares, "Where were his/her CHILDREN! Don't they care about their own mother!! How ungrateful! How disgusting! Their poor mom!"

It's a no win situation. Then, it becomes an even bigger problem for the rest of the family. Better to deal with problems while they're small, unless you have the time and energy and money available for when they snowball.

OP, at some point it might be appropriate to show up if not with a counselor but with a few shoeboxes. Everyone, starting with your father, can take a few mementos that belonged to your mom. I doubt your mom believed that every single thing she touched was sacred. Would you want your own spouse living in a mess unable to throw out things like dish rags? Probably not. Your dad needs to go through everything piece by piece and understand that we will all leave behind a lot of stuff that really doesn't even symbolize us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your father is using his anxiety and grief to control all of you. How long do you intend to drive 300 miles every week because he can't stand to be alone? The rest of your life? How long do you intend to live in a mausoleum/hoard/dump because the notion of throwing away a sponge is upsetting?

Can you see that this is crazy? Time for a family meeting in which you draw boundaries. It's not cruel to say that Dad needs to start learning to live his life as an adult. If he is so prostrate with grief he can't be alone, he either (1) moves (2) checks into a hospital (3) sees a therapist.

+1

Driving 300 miles every weekend? Wow. Sounds like your dad is a real piece of work since he has no friends to socialize with and help him through this time. He has no other activities/hobbies to keep him occupied? Not healthy at all.

I believe in helping people but not being a doormat or enabling bad/detrimental behavior.

[Anonymous]

OP, my dad died last year and while my mom hasn't done hoarding (just the opposite; she is decluttering a lot), I do understand how the death of a partner of 50+ can leave people with a sense of not knowing how to move forward. In this case I think you were fine to clean and declutter--as long as you weren't going around with a disdainful and self-righteous attitude of 'ew, your house is gross' that would only serve to irritate your dad and sister (who is basically living there). Assuming you were not, don't feel guilty. I mean, it was a health issue for the most part.

Maybe leave the topic alone for a bit and avoid any decluttering/throwing out/replacing for the near term, and in a short while when you'd like to clear out something else, bring up the topic in general such as, "I know you were really upset when I did X and Y before. It was only because I'm concerned that rodents/insects are really hard to eliminate if they're left alone in your cupboard, and I want you to relax and not have to deal with such issues at this point. And I want you to have things in full functioning condition as well. On that note, I *do* think it would be good for you to [hire a cleaner/agree to replace this old rug {or whatever}]; can I start looking into this with you?"

In the meantime, perhaps you can also find some other momento worth honoring, such as getting out an old photo and putting it in a frame, or just finding something that you'd like that's in the back of a shelf and bringing it forward to dust off, saying, "I've always liked this beautful shell that mom collected, and I think it's worth making it more visible." that is a nod to some PP's suggestions that clearing out old things was, in your dad's eyes, dishonoring your mother. I cant' see that this is the case with old potholders, but put the focus on the things you *do* want to honor.

My (unmarried) sister also got weird about my dad's items....all of a sudden wanted claim to knicknacks she'd never interested in, as if by holding on to these items she would 'know her father better' as she put it. Fortunately they were things no one else wanted, but it did cause a little tension when my mom was decluttering and my sister was up in arms. She also started telling my kids some exaggerated stories about my dad's expertise in baseball, which he loved watching but never played regularly. So grief does this to people....Hopefully you can get your dad to move forward mentally and socially. It's hard for my mom, and so I sympathize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your father is using his anxiety and grief to control all of you. How long do you intend to drive 300 miles every week because he can't stand to be alone? The rest of your life? How long do you intend to live in a mausoleum/hoard/dump because the notion of throwing away a sponge is upsetting?

Can you see that this is crazy? Time for a family meeting in which you draw boundaries. It's not cruel to say that Dad needs to start learning to live his life as an adult. If he is so prostrate with grief he can't be alone, he either (1) moves (2) checks into a hospital (3) sees a therapist.

+1

Driving 300 miles every weekend? Wow. Sounds like your dad is a real piece of work since he has no friends to socialize with and help him through this time. He has no other activities/hobbies to keep him occupied? Not healthy at all.

I believe in helping people but not being a doormat or enabling bad/detrimental behavior.

OP here. How did this thread turn into a discourse over my father's emotional or mental well being? My mother died less than five weeks ago and they were married 51 years. My father was her primary caregiver during the past seven years since her cancer diagnosis. You want me to go tell my father he's a piece of work because he is still grieving five weeks after her death now? PP, YOU are a piece of something, but "work" was not the first thing that came to my mind. God help you when you are on your death bed because if you raised your children with your philosophy, they are certainly not going to help you. My father is not just just a "person"; he's my FATHER.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thank you all for the many responses and different suggestions.

With the exception of a few, the advice was reasonable and I will heed it.

I did apologize to my father for throwing out the dirty dish rags and sponges. I told him I was trying to be helpful. He told me he wasn't upset at all that they got thrown out, but only that he felt badly that my husband and I were spending too much money on him. My father is a traditional man from the old culture and is uncomfortable having his children take care of him in any way.

I did reassure my father I would never, ever touch any of my mother's belonging without his permission and I never have. He said he had no attachment at all to the rags or sponges or pot holders though.

I want to add though, I am quite shocked at some of the more cold hearted perspectives of some PP's. Grief is a process and my father is in the throes of early stage grieving. It has only been five weeks since he lost the love of his life of 50 yrs. Our family home is large and was once filled with a large family. My mother was the hub of all family life. The house does feel empty without her and many, many visitors have commented on this also. My father doesn't want to move into a smaller home because his children are grown but still visit him regularly with his grandchildren. He will become more accustomed to living alone in due time.

As far as driving 300 miles every weekend goes, yes it is a challenge for my family. But I have the support of my husband and children, who always loved visiting my parents' home. I was never intending to make our weekend trips indefinite. As time went on and he was coping better, I expect our visits would be less frequent.

I'm simply doing what I hope my own children would for me if I am ever in his position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, sorry but I think you were wrong. I know how disgusting it is to stay in a place such as you describe. My mother was completely unable to clean for the last years of her life and she would neither allow us to do it nor allow me to get her a cleaning service. Gross, yes. But, her house, her stuff, her decision. My only option was whether I was going to visit, and, if so for how long and under what circumstances.

I agree with this. My parents are extreme hoarders. All siblings have learned that mom and dad don't want help. When we've done it, we've been yelled at or not spoken to for a significant amount of time. It's a tragic situation but they do not want help. We're also in a long distance situation but the neighbors understand the situation and my situation and are on the look-out for me. Short of calling the fire department and humiliating my parents big time, there is nothing I can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the many responses and different suggestions.

With the exception of a few, the advice was reasonable and I will heed it.

I did apologize to my father for throwing out the dirty dish rags and sponges. I told him I was trying to be helpful. He told me he wasn't upset at all that they got thrown out, but only that he felt badly that my husband and I were spending too much money on him. My father is a traditional man from the old culture and is uncomfortable having his children take care of him in any way.

I did reassure my father I would never, ever touch any of my mother's belonging without his permission and I never have. He said he had no attachment at all to the rags or sponges or pot holders though.

I want to add though, I am quite shocked at some of the more cold hearted perspectives of some PP's. Grief is a process and my father is in the throes of early stage grieving. It has only been five weeks since he lost the love of his life of 50 yrs. Our family home is large and was once filled with a large family. My mother was the hub of all family life. The house does feel empty without her and many, many visitors have commented on this also. My father doesn't want to move into a smaller home because his children are grown but still visit him regularly with his grandchildren. He will become more accustomed to living alone in due time.

As far as driving 300 miles every weekend goes, yes it is a challenge for my family. But I have the support of my husband and children, who always loved visiting my parents' home. I was never intending to make our weekend trips indefinite. As time went on and he was coping better, I expect our visits would be less frequent.

I'm simply doing what I hope my own children would for me if I am ever in his position.

If I were in your shoes, I'd tell him something along these lines: "Dad, life is like a wheel. You took care of me and Sis when we were kids, you comforted us when we were sad or hurt, you provided for us. Now it's our turn, and our privilege, to give back some of what you've so generously given us. I realize this may be hard to accept, considering your values and how much your role as a provider matters to you, but we're doing it out of love and thankfulness, not obligation. We love doing nice things for you, it makes us feel good inside. So, please, let us pamper you a little. I can hardly think of someone I'd rather spend money for, and, really, it's no hardship for me to buy you such small items such as dishrags or sponges. What do you say?"

Maybe your husband/your brother-in-law (if your sister has a partner) could also talk to him. Maybe having another man weigh in on this would help him accept this shift in prospective more easily. And maybe your kids could buy him (with parental help, of course) a membership to a museum or a gift card to a café or something along these lines? I think it would be very unlikely that a gift from his grandchildren would be met with anger. Or throw in the idea of special "Grandpa and us" time in the weekends? Simple things, like doing a craft together, Grandpa regaling them with stories about his childhood/adolescence, an outing in which he can teach them an age-appropriate skill he has? I think that would help him in this time of bereavement.

Please, ignore the cold-hearted posters and do keep us updated. I'd love to know how things progress for your Dad and you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the many responses and different suggestions.

With the exception of a few, the advice was reasonable and I will heed it.

I did apologize to my father for throwing out the dirty dish rags and sponges. I told him I was trying to be helpful. He told me he wasn't upset at all that they got thrown out, but only that he felt badly that my husband and I were spending too much money on him. My father is a traditional man from the old culture and is uncomfortable having his children take care of him in any way.

I did reassure my father I would never, ever touch any of my mother's belonging without his permission and I never have. He said he had no attachment at all to the rags or sponges or pot holders though.

I want to add though, I am quite shocked at some of the more cold hearted perspectives of some PP's. Grief is a process and my father is in the throes of early stage grieving. It has only been five weeks since he lost the love of his life of 50 yrs. Our family home is large and was once filled with a large family. My mother was the hub of all family life. The house does feel empty without her and many, many visitors have commented on this also. My father doesn't want to move into a smaller home because his children are grown but still visit him regularly with his grandchildren. He will become more accustomed to living alone in due time.

As far as driving 300 miles every weekend goes, yes it is a challenge for my family. But I have the support of my husband and children, who always loved visiting my parents' home. I was never intending to make our weekend trips indefinite. As time went on and he was coping better, I expect our visits would be less frequent.

I'm simply doing what I hope my own children would for me if I am ever in his position.

Your mother passed away only 5 weeks ago? First of all, my sympathies. Second, your father is a brave, strong man just for having the fortitude to get up every morning and get through the day in a functional manner. I don't know that I'd be able to tell left from right if I were in his shoes, especially considering that they were married for such a long time and he was her primary caregiver for SEVEN years.

That said, I don't want to make the mistake of practicing armchair psychology, but I'd gently encourage your father to consider seeing a grief counsellor or to join a bereavement self-help group, if I were you. He did not only lose his partner of a lifetime and the love of his life - he went through the grind of being her primary caregiver as well. People who undergo that much strain NEED professional help. Depression and even suicide after the death of a loved one following a prolonged illness are not uncommon.

I don't want to scare you, just put out a suggestion. You come across as a very good daughter. Please look out for your father in this regard as well.

[Anonymous]

Wow, you need to get a live-in housekeeper for your father. You need to set boundaries. Have your father visit you for a week here and there. But get him someone to live with him.

[Anonymous]

OP here. After the cancer, my father is left with bills. He can not afford a housekeeper. This is why I clean his home.

[Anonymous]

OP ~ the visiting schedule you describe is not a reasonable. It is not sustainable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. After the cancer, my father is left with bills. He can not afford a housekeeper. This is why I clean his home.

OP, I'm so sorry for the loss of your mom and the struggles you are having now with figuring out the best way to help your dad. I think you're doing very well attuning to his needs and being sensitive but also proactive. You also are grieving, and I think what you have accomplished is very impressive.

And I am really, really glad you let a couple of the previous posters have a piece of your mind. I was about to chime in on your behalf. Really, what in the world is wrong with people? Just horrid.

Take care, OP.

[Anonymous]

OP, your situation sounds a little bit like ours, now 8 years ago. My parents had been married for 40 years, my mother was the heartbeat of the family and of a huge circle of friends, my father spent the final 7 managing my mother's cancer treatment, and despite the fact that her death was not really unexpected, we were all in shock and he was totally bereft with grief. One of my brothers basically lived with him much of the time for the first few months, the other two of us visited often (but not every weekend.)

We didn't have issues like you're dealing with now, but there were similar things that provoked controversies. They all seem really silly now but it's easy to get caught up in petty disagreements when your world has been turned upside down. My father wanted and needed lots of caretaking, but at the same time he didn't like anything that smacked of paternalism or superiority. My very assertive (and well-meaning) SIL would clean out the fridge or pantry occasionally and dump tons of outdated condiments, etc., and that made my dad totally furious. I totally get why you are doing what you're doing, but in hindsight I can see why this sort of thing can feel like an intrusion and a slap in the face to someone who lives in the home.

[Anonymous]

I would agree with the people saying don't throw away stuff before asking, except if the stuff is dirty cleaning supplies. It's understood that those types of objects get replaced after a period of use. "Mom touched this" applies to everything in the house, and is not a legitimate argument against throwing disgusting cleaning supplies away - that's unsanitary. Certainly not one OP should be expected to anticipate without being warned.

That said, their acting out is mitigated by grief, so just try to let it go. If they are pissed at you throwing stuff out, put it in a bag for them to go through next time. That would irritate me too, but it might help point out how ridiculous they are being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the many responses and different suggestions.

With the exception of a few, the advice was reasonable and I will heed it.

I did apologize to my father for throwing out the dirty dish rags and sponges. I told him I was trying to be helpful. He told me he wasn't upset at all that they got thrown out, but only that he felt badly that my husband and I were spending too much money on him. My father is a traditional man from the old culture and is uncomfortable having his children take care of him in any way.

I did reassure my father I would never, ever touch any of my mother's belonging without his permission and I never have. He said he had no attachment at all to the rags or sponges or pot holders though.

I want to add though, I am quite shocked at some of the more cold hearted perspectives of some PP's. Grief is a process and my father is in the throes of early stage grieving. It has only been five weeks since he lost the love of his life of 50 yrs. Our family home is large and was once filled with a large family. My mother was the hub of all family life. The house does feel empty without her and many, many visitors have commented on this also. My father doesn't want to move into a smaller home because his children are grown but still visit him regularly with his grandchildren. He will become more accustomed to living alone in due time.

As far as driving 300 miles every weekend goes, yes it is a challenge for my family. But I have the support of my husband and children, who always loved visiting my parents' home. I was never intending to make our weekend trips indefinite. As time went on and he was coping better, I expect our visits would be less frequent.

I'm simply doing what I hope my own children would for me if I am ever in his position.

OP, you sound like a very caring daughter. It's very early in the grieving process and he's probably just taking one day at a time. As time goes on he'll figure out what is best for him. Good luck to your father and family.