The Introvert’s Disadvantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

NP. I've read and love that book, but I think the author would agree that extroverts have an unfair advantage in this world for many of the reasons OP describes.

It’s not an unfair advantage. You can learn to improve your social skills. You can learn leadership. If you don’t, that’s on you. It is fair that people who are bad at a certain role are not chosen for that role.

You sound like the type of person who when discussing mental health issues just says “everyone has problems, just get over it”. And no, I’m not equating introversion with mental illness—but as I previously stated there’s a very good reason why people equate introversion with anxiety disorders.

I wouldn’t describe it as an unfair advantage but the world is 100% biased in favor of extroverts.

[Anonymous]

I agree that “unfair” is not the right word. It’s the equivalent of:

- thin people have an unfair advantage
- pretty people have an unfair advantage
- tall people have an unfair advantage
- people with straight teeth have an unfair advantage
- people without anxiety or depression have an unfair advantage

These people all have advantages but they aren’t unfair. My friend’s child had perfect stats and a perfect SAT but was rejected to most high level school because of minimal EC activities. The parents believe it’s bc the child is an introvert. I’m sure they are right. Other kids who aren’t like that have an advantage but not an unfair one. (I’m guessing this kid’s grades are higher because of less ECs and related time commitments.) in some ways, that gave this kid an advantage.

[Anonymous]

The leadership aspect of admissions kills me. In high school, most leadership positions are about popularity and that’s not a sure sign you’re a god leader it a good person. But you are probably an extrovert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The leadership aspect of admissions kills me. In high school, most leadership positions are about popularity and that’s not a sure sign you’re a god leader it a good person. But you are probably an extrovert.

Yes the leadership aspect is overplayed in my opinion. “Describe how you are a leader, etc etc blah blah”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that “unfair” is not the right word. It’s the equivalent of:

- thin people have an unfair advantage
- pretty people have an unfair advantage
- tall people have an unfair advantage
- people with straight teeth have an unfair advantage
- people without anxiety or depression have an unfair advantage

These people all have advantages but they aren’t unfair. My friend’s child had perfect stats and a perfect SAT but was rejected to most high level school because of minimal EC activities. The parents believe it’s bc the child is an introvert. I’m sure they are right. Other kids who aren’t like that have an advantage but not an unfair one. (I’m guessing this kid’s grades are higher because of less ECs and related time commitments.) in some ways, that gave this kid an advantage.

Thoughtful people have an unfair advantage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

Do you remember being a teenager? They have anxiety about everything. An introvert that age will have some anxiety about being an introvert; it’s normal. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy. This shy/introvert distinction often obfuscates what it is intended to elucidate, not to mention the insufferable pedantry involved.

I remember being a teenager and an introverted one. My problem was just the opposite - I simply didn’t give a damn re: what anyone thought about me, so no anxiety. And again, introverts are not shy - we have different needs as far as the amount of time we spend connecting with others, but we have no problem initiating the connections when we feel like it.

Your memory of your “anxiety-free” teenager-dom reveals more about your current self-concept and the vagaries of memory than the reality of that time. But so glad you are not “shy” anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

NP. I've read and love that book, but I think the author would agree that extroverts have an unfair advantage in this world for many of the reasons OP describes.

It’s not an unfair advantage. You can learn to improve your social skills. You can learn leadership. If you don’t, that’s on you. It is fair that people who are bad at a certain role are not chosen for that role.

You sound like the type of person who when discussing mental health issues just says “everyone has problems, just get over it”. And no, I’m not equating introversion with mental illness—but as I previously stated there’s a very good reason why people equate introversion with anxiety disorders.

I wouldn’t describe it as an unfair advantage but the world is 100% biased in favor of extroverts.

I also don’t think it’s an unfair advantage that hiring is biased in favor of people who do not have mental illness. The world is biased in favor of the mentally healthy and that is as it should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

Yes, this is what I've seen. My A-/B+ kid says a lot of the kids with higher GPAs just know how to whine for them -- extra credit, retakes, flattering the teacher. He's also turned off from some of the extracurriculars ruled by these loud, popular kids. What does he do -- sit there in meetings and still not get noticed, or just not join in the first place?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The leadership aspect of admissions kills me. In high school, most leadership positions are about popularity and that’s not a sure sign you’re a god leader it a good person. But you are probably an extrovert.

Colleges want people who will claw their way to the top of business and then make big donations. They don't want "good people".

[Anonymous]

I would suggest that introverts learn to develop a skill that speaks for itself - such as being an athlete that plays at a recruited level

A lot of high level athletes are quirky, introverted and awkward contrary to stereotypical “big man on campus” vibe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

Yes, this is what I've seen. My A-/B+ kid says a lot of the kids with higher GPAs just know how to whine for them -- extra credit, retakes, flattering the teacher. He's also turned off from some of the extracurriculars ruled by these loud, popular kids. What does he do -- sit there in meetings and still not get noticed, or just not join in the first place?

Found an introverts club. Launch a Web site. Invent something in the basement.

[Anonymous]

Introvert in my family went to HYP.

Non introverts went to lower ranked colleges and gas better careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

Yes, this is what I've seen. My A-/B+ kid says a lot of the kids with higher GPAs just know how to whine for them -- extra credit, retakes, flattering the teacher. He's also turned off from some of the extracurriculars ruled by these loud, popular kids. What does he do -- sit there in meetings and still not get noticed, or just not join in the first place?

Found an introverts club. Launch a Web site. Invent something in the basement.

This introvert is falling to the ground laughing. Introvert club...uhm yes. Because that is what introverts do naturally, congregate in groups, nevermind large groups together.



Okay, lauching a website while working separately sounds much more reasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

Yes, this is what I've seen. My A-/B+ kid says a lot of the kids with higher GPAs just know how to whine for them -- extra credit, retakes, flattering the teacher. He's also turned off from some of the extracurriculars ruled by these loud, popular kids. What does he do -- sit there in meetings and still not get noticed, or just not join in the first place?

Hm yes, that was/is a huge hurdle for many introverts. Our DC enjoyed robotics, but felt like the extroverts sucked the air out of it. Still stuck it out. Quietly and stubborn, venting at home (we just listened gave pointers but did not interfere). Eventually there was a year where they were all introverts on the team and maybe by coincidence DC's team made it into the final round (they just quietly worked together).

Some teachers are better at recognizing the quiet talent in their classroom, but maybe they are also hidden introverts?

DC is now in college, and it has taken focused effort to no blend into the background, but to reach out to professors and slowly build a relationship. Was it comfortable, no. Was it enjoyable, not really. Did DC see others make quicker connections and charming the professors, yes. It took all of freshman year, and once in the research lab it might take effort again to do more than media prep.
It is an uphill battle, but the realization has sunk in, this is an extroverts world. Learn the skills to fake it and then make sure you have all the quiet alone time you need to recharge.

[Anonymous]

It’s not unfair. Extroversion is a kind of emotional intelligence that manifests itself in lots of valuable ways. Kids that have it have an advantage, just like kids that are good at sports, or good at math, or good writers.