The Introvert’s Disadvantage

[Anonymous]

I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. My kid is an extrovert, but doesn’t have a strong sense of self yet. Maybe your introverted son has a lot of interests, ideas, musings, and intellectual curiosity that he’s been able to nurture. Colleges look for that.

[Anonymous]

I have twins as well though b/g. One is extroverted the other is very quiet. He did have a leadership role in his sport senior year. Otherwise his college application was a little more generic than his sisters but he had amazing stats. He actually got creative with how he described his pretty average ECs (on advice from a college counselor) which really showed his great sense of humor and humble personality. They both got into the same school ED. I have no idea what his recommendation letters said but I assume it was about how he was a super hard working, diligent kid. I’m sure my DDs was more about her leadership personality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

[Anonymous]

There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

[Anonymous]

Our two introverts are much stronger students than our extrovert and their college acceptances reflected that (T5 schools).

There's plenty of introverts among their peer groups.

[Anonymous]

I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

[Anonymous]

BTW— a college of 14,000 leaders is a nightmare. Colleges need artists, musicians, writers, athletes, and on and on. Leadership roles are one way to stand out with ECs. But certainly not the only way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

I agree there is a bias in our school application system and also for certain business and management job search processes. I think American culture values the appearance of extroversion.

I have an older kid who is friendly, calm, reasonably popular. I call him "electable". And he has two EC leadership roles. The second is funny, edgy, clever beyond the usual, a bit too sassy, and critical of others. Both are equally smart but I don't see the younger getting leadership roles because he is not "electable".

For the younger, I think it will be best to focus on pointy intellectual interests, fit to major, and better SAT math scores. I would like it if he had leadership roles, but it will be what it will be. He will likely have the same state flagship safety schools as his big brother and we are comfortable with those already. I have no idea what leaps he will make in the next two years but we are more than willing to help if he needs parental support.

I am concerned about letters of recommendation for the younger. It's possible his might come from EC sponsors or maybe a math teacher.

With respect to leadership, there is also sometimes some wiggle room to define leadership in terms of something other than an elected role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

NP. Why do you think that poster above isn't an introvert? Writing style has nothing to do with introversion/extraversion. I'm an introvert, strongly inclined (yet I have no fear of public speaking, or leadership positions -- I just don't typically seek them out). And I agree with everything that PP wrote.

The key is to remember that "introvert" doesn't necessarily equal "shy and awkward." I have 2 kids, both introverts (like me). I do agree with the notion that very shy and awkward kids, no matter how brilliant, might have more trouble obtaining glowing letters of recommendation. But introverted kids can really wow teachers with their thoughtfulness, so great LORs may actually be fairly easy to obtain.

And while an introvert might not want to run for class president, they absolutely might have a leadership position in a smaller club, or extracurricular interest group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

That's kind of funny. I agree.

But that book "Quiet" is highly recommended.

I have an MBA and work with a bunch of MBAs. Many of us are introverts on the Meyers-Briggs scale. But you can't tell. We've been socialized to behave like extroverts.

The social skills of strategizing to cultivate a relationship with a high school teacher are a bit next level from what I remember of high school...not that it can't be done...just that it seems not likely for an introverted kid to think of without parental coaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

NP. Why do you think that poster above isn't an introvert? Writing style has nothing to do with introversion/extraversion. I'm an introvert, strongly inclined (yet I have no fear of public speaking, or leadership positions -- I just don't typically seek them out). And I agree with everything that PP wrote.

The key is to remember that "introvert" doesn't necessarily equal "shy and awkward." I have 2 kids, both introverts (like me). I do agree with the notion that very shy and awkward kids, no matter how brilliant, might have more trouble obtaining glowing letters of recommendation. But introverted kids can really wow teachers with their thoughtfulness, so great LORs may actually be fairly easy to obtain.

And while an introvert might not want to run for class president, they absolutely might have a leadership position in a smaller club, or extracurricular interest group.

The OP is thoughtful. PP is not — and is insulting. Introverts are not usually obnoxious but, yes, they sometimes do agree with people who are. Case in point.

[Anonymous]

It didn't help my introvert that they might have different teachers for first and second semester of any given class, since our school shifts their schedules around entirely at the semester. It made it that much harder for them to develop relationships with potential recommenders.

[Anonymous]

+1 for the book Quiet. It made a lasting change in how I see myself, as an introvert in a professional role that would typically attract an extrovert. I used to think i needed to act like an extrovert, which was really draining to me. This book helped me see my strengths. Now I own my introversion (which doesn’t mean I am shy, weak, or conflict-avoidant), and I just show up as my authentic self.