The Introvert’s Disadvantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts. Sure, that person usually is not Student Council president, but again, they are leaders in the areas that fit their interests / personalities.

Also, introverts tend to do well in one-on-one interviews and small gatherings...they just are not at their best at a large party.

I think you would probably consider the majority of kids at elite colleges to probably be introverts...or at least not extroverts. Not sure if there is something in the middle.

[Anonymous]

Maybe because sports has become such a big thing with college admissions, but I know many introverted athletes.

Gone on the days where the athletes were just the BMOC..replaced with kids spending hours each day all year long with specialized training, gym time, etc. Very serious kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

So I'm not quite sure why the hand-wringing when you sum it up with this?

There are all kinds of advantages some people have, in college applications and in life, that others don't. Is it fair that taller men have advantages over shorter men in careers? Is it fair that more attractive women/thin women have advantages? Is it fair that rich kids have advantages?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

So I'm not quite sure why the hand-wringing when you sum it up with this?

There are all kinds of advantages some people have, in college applications and in life, that others don't. Is it fair that taller men have advantages over shorter men in careers? Is it fair that more attractive women/thin women have advantages? Is it fair that rich kids have advantages?

Nice mind-numbing analogy. Should taller people be given a boost in college admissions? Should attractive people? Should wealthy people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

Agree with all of this. But most teenagers would struggle to articulate this point and the bias in "leadership" qualities and rec letters is very real. My academically stellar very shy kid has a teacher who marks down any presentation they do not based on content but on the performance aspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

Agree with all of this. But most teenagers would struggle to articulate this point and the bias in "leadership" qualities and rec letters is very real. My academically stellar very shy kid has a teacher who marks down any presentation they do not based on content but on the performance aspect.

Ugh, yes, we've seen this, too.

[Anonymous]

I imagine the required interviews at most of the top 10s, and some 20s would be tough on the shy and introverted. Luckily, they are said not to matter much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I imagine the required interviews at most of the top 10s, and some 20s would be tough on the shy and introverted. Luckily, they are said not to matter much.

They won't delight in them most likely, but they can thoughtfully nail them. I know mine has.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

Leader means "the one who decides what will be done and how it will be done". Follower means "the one who will do it". Introverts as followers can think whatever they want about what the leader says, but they've still got to do what they're told.

And no, a group does not need a bunch of non-conformists constantly arguing with leadership decisions in order to function well. You can have a discussion before the decision is made, but once the decision is made, STFU and get it done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts.

lol this is made-up nonsense that nerds are forced to do just so they can pretend they have some "leadership" experience. We all know (and AOs know) that president of the chess club or captain of the robotics team is a total joke.

[Anonymous]

Tiresome flame baiting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I haven't followed most of this thread, but I know plenty of introverts that are leaders. Usually, the captain of the robotics team or other STEM or academic clubs are introverts.

lol this is made-up nonsense that nerds are forced to do just so they can pretend they have some "leadership" experience. We all know (and AOs know) that president of the chess club or captain of the robotics team is a total joke.

Explain? How is the captain of the robotics team a total joke? Actually, there are a number of AOs and Heads of Admission that are on the record saying how much they love kids that participate in FIRST Robotics and especially team leaders.

They also love Math Olympiad captains...and they love the chess club especially if your team does well in competition (or you do well in individual competition).

Captains of sports teams are normally a total joke because at many schools, the coach tells every senior they are a captain, and the captains have absolutely zero responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it can go either way. My introverted eldest was very driven and had tons of leadership positions in his passion fields - he also had his own business and teachers loved him because he was so smart. His resume going to college was near perfect. My next one getting ready to apply next year is an extrovert but just likes to hang with friends and chill. Dare I say a touch lazy? So, it depends.

+1

Enough with the "WAAAAHHHH I'm an introvert nonsense"

Okay, just ignore the tons of documentation about how society is biased against introverts.

Society is only biased in favor of extroverts when it is a question of deciding who should be a leader for the simple reason that introverts are bad at it.

Society has no bias against introverts in follower positions. Introverts can have perfectly successful and satisfying lives getting the work done under the direction of extroverts.

We’re having this discussion in a forum about college admissions being biased. Not the jobs and careers forum.

I responded directly to a comment that talked about "society". And in any event, it is still relevant because elite colleges seek to select future leaders, and therefore they have a bias against introverts who are best suited to being followers and should therefore attend other colleges.

I find this very interesting. In my experience, introverts are far more likely than extroverts to be non-conformists; extroverts are more likely to be followers. It is the introvert member of a working group who is most likely to have a different perspective — and is more likely the type to say “no” to a person not used to being disagreed with. Any group needs both to function well. Any college too.

Leader means "the one who decides what will be done and how it will be done". Follower means "the one who will do it". Introverts as followers can think whatever they want about what the leader says, but they've still got to do what they're told.

And no, a group does not need a bunch of non-conformists constantly arguing with leadership decisions in order to function well. You can have a discussion before the decision is made, but once the decision is made, STFU and get it done.

You have unwittingly made the point that extroverts — not introverts — are followers. I agree.