The Introvert’s Disadvantage

[Anonymous]

My introvert got in everywhere he applied. Sounds like he just needs to apply to the right schools so he will have plenty of choice. My son's essay was about working at a farm in the summer planting. He loved it and it was just the right balance of working with others and working on his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

Do you remember being a teenager? They have anxiety about everything. An introvert that age will have some anxiety about being an introvert; it’s normal. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy. This shy/introvert distinction often obfuscates what it is intended to elucidate, not to mention the insufferable pedantry involved.

I remember being a teenager and an introverted one. My problem was just the opposite - I simply didn’t give a damn re: what anyone thought about me, so no anxiety. And again, introverts are not shy - we have different needs as far as the amount of time we spend connecting with others, but we have no problem initiating the connections when we feel like it.

Same here. I am an introvert but you might not know it. My son is a bit less of an introvert but he doesn't care what people think of him either. He has some friends like I did (and do) but you aren't going to find us anxious that we aren't going out all of the time. I try not to make social plans too far in advance because I never know how I will feel that day. My son rarely makes plans in advance and that works for him as most teenage boys are the same way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not unfair. Extroversion is a kind of emotional intelligence that manifests itself in lots of valuable ways. Kids that have it have an advantage, just like kids that are good at sports, or good at math, or good writers.

I'm a teacher and I disagree. The best leaders listen to others. Sometimes extroverts are just interested in hearing their own voice. That includes many former principals. My current principal is an introvert but is socially adept. He's single with no kids so he does have the advantage of being able to go home to quiet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no question that extroverts have a huge bump in the world of holistic admissions. The top schools also reward extroverts with sharpened elbows whose leadership positions stem from, sometimes, not being so nice. Everyone knows who these cutthroat kids are. Put them all together in an elite school and I would think the results are horrifying. Any institution, work group — anything — needs a mix of personality types to function well. Each personality type has something to offer. And yet…

Yes, this is what I've seen. My A-/B+ kid says a lot of the kids with higher GPAs just know how to whine for them -- extra credit, retakes, flattering the teacher. He's also turned off from some of the extracurriculars ruled by these loud, popular kids. What does he do -- sit there in meetings and still not get noticed, or just not join in the first place?

Found an introverts club. Launch a Web site. Invent something in the basement.

Ha ha. No worries, he did indeed find his "things" and has done very well. He's no basement dweller ... just a nice, quiet kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTW— a college of 14,000 leaders is a nightmare. Colleges need artists, musicians, writers, athletes, and on and on. Leadership roles are one way to stand out with ECs. But certainly not the only way.

Penn - a school full of tristate and southern Florida wannabe netenyahus

Truly a cesspool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

Do you remember being a teenager? They have anxiety about everything. An introvert that age will have some anxiety about being an introvert; it’s normal. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy. This shy/introvert distinction often obfuscates what it is intended to elucidate, not to mention the insufferable pedantry involved.

I remember being a teenager and an introverted one. My problem was just the opposite - I simply didn’t give a damn re: what anyone thought about me, so no anxiety. And again, introverts are not shy - we have different needs as far as the amount of time we spend connecting with others, but we have no problem initiating the connections when we feel like it.

Same here. I am an introvert but you might not know it. My son is a bit less of an introvert but he doesn't care what people think of him either. He has some friends like I did (and do) but you aren't going to find us anxious that we aren't going out all of the time. I try not to make social plans too far in advance because I never know how I will feel that day. My son rarely makes plans in advance and that works for him as most teenage boys are the same way.

You are describing me and my DD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

LOL, great response.

I agree with the OP, you describe it very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

Let’s put it this way: I can tell you are not an introvert.

As an actual introvert, I can tell you, you are wrong. PP is spot on. Being an introvert doesn’t mean you don’t speak to anyone. It means you need time alone to recharge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not unfair. Extroversion is a kind of emotional intelligence that manifests itself in lots of valuable ways. Kids that have it have an advantage, just like kids that are good at sports, or good at math, or good writers.

I'm a teacher and I disagree. The best leaders listen to others. Sometimes extroverts are just interested in hearing their own voice. That includes many former principals. My current principal is an introvert but is socially adept. He's single with no kids so he does have the advantage of being able to go home to quiet.

+1 I have a very happy team at work, full of introverts with a wonderful department head who is also an introvert and great at listening to us. We're all researchers, a job that tends to attract introverts.

FWIW, I share the annoyance with colleges' seeming emphasis on "leadership!" which seems to really mean winning popularity contests and coming up with ways to make yourself look important. A college full of that kind of leadership sounds exhausting and not conducive to collaborative work.

But I read somewhere that when colleges say "leadership" what they really mean is making an impact and you don't have to be the loudest voice in the room to make a real impact. My kids did fine in college admissions sharing quieter types of leadership aka impact. DS wrote a beautiful short essay for a supplement about service where he talked about how he always worked the beverage station at a community service program our family volunteered at for years. And that he liked the job because it was the one place that was not about moving people through as quickly as possible. He saw the same guests every month and they could chat (1-on-1 as introverts prefer) and get to know each other. Through that consistent, quiet presence he made people feel welcomed and connected. He never wanted to sit on the committee that planned the event or be the person up front with the mic but from a small, seemingly unimportant job, he made people feel welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not unfair. Extroversion is a kind of emotional intelligence that manifests itself in lots of valuable ways. Kids that have it have an advantage, just like kids that are good at sports, or good at math, or good writers.

Extroversion has zero to do with “emotional intelligence.” If anything, introverts have more emotional intelligence. They’re listeners, observers, they have more self awareness, they know how to navigate certain situations.

You’re probably referring to social intelligence. Which some extroverts certainly have, and other extroverts are severely lacking.

[Anonymous]

Anyway, I think we’ve established that there is no introvert penalty, just one guy mad about his kid not gettin accepted somewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Extroversion has zero to do with “emotional intelligence.” If anything, introverts have more emotional intelligence. They’re listeners, observers, they have more self awareness, they know how to navigate certain situations.

Knowing how to navigate certain situations is not the same as actually executing effectively on that knowledge. Many introverts may still have challenges with the latter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My introvert got in everywhere he applied. Sounds like he just needs to apply to the right schools so he will have plenty of choice. My son's essay was about working at a farm in the summer planting. He loved it and it was just the right balance of working with others and working on his own.

The helpfulness of this answer is wholly dependent on where your student applied, what his stats were and were any reaches?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extroversion has zero to do with “emotional intelligence.” If anything, introverts have more emotional intelligence. They’re listeners, observers, they have more self awareness, they know how to navigate certain situations.

Knowing how to navigate certain situations is not the same as actually executing effectively on that knowledge. Many introverts may still have challenges with the latter.

Same goes for extroverts. Boy, there are plenty at my job, that know the theory of how to execute certain situations correctly, but in practice it goes completely sideways.

On the same token I have an introvert teammate that rocks the execution and then goes and recharges in quiet, seeking non contact if possible for a while.

[Anonymous]

PP here:

Also, introvert does not necessarily equal social anxiety, just like not all extroverts feel the need to be front and center, they just love to socialize, but are not necessarily spotlight hogs (though many seem).