The Introvert’s Disadvantage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Yes

[Anonymous]

I agree it is easier for the extrovert. But I think the key is for the introvert to find something where they excel that works for their personality, such as ab individual sport or a musical instrument.

[Anonymous]

High school is made for an extrovert: 7 classes, extracurriculars right after school, constant group projects and presentations.

I have one extrovert and one introvert, so I've seen the disadvantage for my introvert child myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

Do you remember being a teenager? They have anxiety about everything. An introvert that age will have some anxiety about being an introvert; it’s normal. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy. This shy/introvert distinction often obfuscates what it is intended to elucidate, not to mention the insufferable pedantry involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

NP. I've read and love that book, but I think the author would agree that extroverts have an unfair advantage in this world for many of the reasons OP describes.

[Anonymous]

I totally saw this with my two older kids — my DS is an introvert and, while intelligent, struggled with admissions. My extroverted DD, on the other hand, had an easier time with admissions. That said, my DS found his school and is totally kicking a$$ there — he is a STEM major and is acing all the hard wash-out classes. I suspect he will find his stride and be very successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

Do you remember being a teenager? They have anxiety about everything. An introvert that age will have some anxiety about being an introvert; it’s normal. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy. This shy/introvert distinction often obfuscates what it is intended to elucidate, not to mention the insufferable pedantry involved.

I remember being a teenager and an introverted one. My problem was just the opposite - I simply didn’t give a damn re: what anyone thought about me, so no anxiety. And again, introverts are not shy - we have different needs as far as the amount of time we spend connecting with others, but we have no problem initiating the connections when we feel like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

Note: introverted <> crushing anxiety or any level of anxiety.

In the strictest sense, sure. But how many genuine extroverts have genuine social anxiety?

There’s a reason why shyness and social anxiety is often attributed to introversion. They very much can and do go hand-in-hand. If you’re an extrovert and outgoing and like being the center of attention and like large gatherings—you literally get your energy from this… pretty antithetic if you are shy and have social anxiety.

Whereas introverts, who do not like large gatherings, prefer alone time and need it to recharge… and living in a society that caters to extroverts and thus constantly having to be in situations that are in conflict with your nature and the knowledge that you are going to continue to have to do these things regardless of if you’re able to adapt, can and does cause major dread and anxiety. As well as “just get it over with, don’t draw attention” shyness.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely the world is made for extroverts. It doesn’t end at college admissions, continues in most professional fields too.

I am probably 75% introvert 25% extrovert. But I have good social skills thanks to my parents modeling them. And I can fake it enough to succeed in HS, college, and job. Still prefer smaller groups or 1-on-1 and still avoid networking events and large gatherings as much as I can. But I show up often enough and for long enough that people are like “okay she showed up” because I don’t want to drop out of social or professional circles completely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

NP. I've read and love that book, but I think the author would agree that extroverts have an unfair advantage in this world for many of the reasons OP describes.

She does agree: “I was fuelled by the same mix of passion and indignation that I imagine inspired Betty Friedan to publish "The Feminine Mystique" in 1963. Introverts are to extroverts what women were to men at that time--second-class citizens with gigantic amounts of untapped talent. Our schools, workplaces, and religious institutions are designed for extroverts, and many introverts believe that there is something wrong with them and that they should try to "pass" as extroverts. The bias against introversion leads to a colossal waste of talent, energy, and happiness.”

Cbs news interview from 2012 about the book.

[Anonymous]

I see what you mean, OP, and as an extreme introvert I often resent the apparent emphasis on public-facing accomplishments—"leadership" or whatever. However, my experience both as a college prof and as a parent suggests that teachers and counsellors know and value the introverted kids far more than might be apparent from the parents'-end view of the process. I have two extremely introverted kids who both got into very highly-ranked SLACs. One is a practically perfect student and the other a little less so, but both were clearly loved and valued by their high school teachers and they've thrived at their SLACs. And from what I've seen on the admissions end, the word gets through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a father of fraternal twin boys who are seniors, applying to college. They are very different — one is extroverted, open and outgoing; the other is introverted, quieter, private. How does this manifest in applying to college? The extrovert has some leadership positions; his brother, less so. It’s a struggle to try to paint him as a leader when he’s not one but all the colleges seem to want leadership. But the main thing is that people — teachers, coaches, counselors — know my extroverted son well and write glowing recommendation letters. My introverted son is harder to get to know and I suspect his letters are less inspiring. I think that’s a huge disadvantage applying to college. Those recommendation letters are a way for admissions officers to get to know the applicant. Without that, it’s much harder to get a true, unbiased sense of a kid. I know that, sure, the introvert should work on establishing a few relationships with teachers that can come through for him. But that’s much harder for him. Why am I writing this? Because it pains me that introverted kids have a harder time — at least that’s what I suspect — even though they are just as smart and have other gifts. The colleges don’t seem to recognize that. This is the way of the world, I suppose.

BTW, the extrovert was admitted to his ED school, a top ten SLAC; his brother didn’t get in ED but has been accepted at some good schools so far. Both will do well.

Yes, it’s very true, and very unfair.

A kid who’s extroverted and popular enough to be in student government, sports team captain, whatever other ECs, is not necessarily a better student than the kid who’s introverted and made it through High School with crushing anxiety.

Like, obviously there’s merit to being a well-liked overachiever. But it’s pretty ridiculous how now it seems like a prerequisite. Plenty of kids who would thrive in elite colleges who for whatever reason in High School weren’t social butterflies.

I agree wholeheartedly OP, and I honestly think it’s even more slanted against introverts in multiple other ways not explicitly as obvious as the lack of teachers knowing your kid well enough to write glowing recommendations.

I agree there is a bias in our school application system and also for certain business and management job search processes. I think American culture values the appearance of extroversion.

In my experience, introverts are terrible managers and should never be managers unless they can put their introversion aside at work. The bias against introverts in management is a good thing and must continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two strongly introverted kids who did very well in college admissions. They definitely knew several teachers well enough to get great recommendations. But they worked hard, were polite, had the social skills to say hello to teachers or make a few comments about what they did that weekend, and, most importantly, contributed to class discussions when they had interesting thoughts. Nobody likes the kid whose hand shoots up first to answer every question, whether they have something thoughtful to say or not. Including/especially, the teacher.

Introverted does not mean head down, never makes eye contact, never speaks in class, never says hello to the teacher, never responds when adults talk to them and is unable to make small talk with adults. It means they prefer smaller groups of friends and not socializing in large, loud groups. It means they didn’t talk/text and socialize 24/7, and spent part of their downtime doing things with 1-2 close friends, or alone. A well controlled AP Lit class discussion is not the sort of thing an introvert can’t handle and can’t meaningfully contribute too.

Plenty of introverts raise their hands in class and make very smart, insightful comments, say hello to the teachers, make small talk when they meet teachers in the hall and are generally well liked.

And, being class president (or president of anything) isn’t the only EC that matters. My kids were very involved in music, and there were lots of introverts in band and orchestra. Marching band is a huge commitment and recognized by colleges as such. So are FRC and FTC robotics, which attracts introverts . So are athletics (and no, the star tennis player or baseball player does not have to be an extrovert). And many other ECs.

An introverted kid would have different strengths, not fewer. If your kid really doesn’t know a teacher who can write positively about them, it sounds like they have social anxiety and never contribute in class. Or poor social skills, which is different than introversion. Otherwise, a good teacher would know them and be able to write a strong LOR. And that’s on you. Social anxiety should be treated and poor social skills are just a parenting fail.

It also sounds like you prefer your extrovert and are projecting onto teachers and AOs. And that’s the biggest parenting fail of all.

Read Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking. And do better.

NP. I've read and love that book, but I think the author would agree that extroverts have an unfair advantage in this world for many of the reasons OP describes.

It’s not an unfair advantage. You can learn to improve your social skills. You can learn leadership. If you don’t, that’s on you. It is fair that people who are bad at a certain role are not chosen for that role.

[Anonymous]

It’s true.
The way for the introvert is to be really good at what he or she does, preferably stem, and not some blah blah profession.
They will find their niche
Signed,
-mom of introvert