If you had a completely non-potty trained 5 year old

[Anonymous]

I have friends with a child like this. The child is 4.5 and the preschool-8th grade school was furious with them but did renew their contract. I was shocked. The school did call the parents in to change the child and get them cleaned up, but they were often late so the child would sit and wait for 45 minutes or an hour in soiled clothing. I think the school relies on parents reading between the lines of attempted non-renewal conversations and this might have been the rare family that chose to not understand.

The child was adopted with disclosure of parental drug/alcohol abuse and there are definitely developmental delays, but the parents write it off as the child being stubborn.

It’s really tough because I’ve known these friends forever but I also don’t feel like I can speak up- it’s just too personal. Both parents have incredible demanding careers and one has a very public job so the kids spend a lot of time with grandparents and their au pair. There isn’t the consistency to help the kid get the support they need and it’s tough to be adjacent to.

OP, this might require resources you don’t have. I think you’re at a public school, though, which will help- you can summon resources in a way that a private school teacher can’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have friends with a child like this. The child is 4.5 and the preschool-8th grade school was furious with them but did renew their contract. I was shocked. The school did call the parents in to change the child and get them cleaned up, but they were often late so the child would sit and wait for 45 minutes or an hour in soiled clothing. I think the school relies on parents reading between the lines of attempted non-renewal conversations and this might have been the rare family that chose to not understand.

The child was adopted with disclosure of parental drug/alcohol abuse and there are definitely developmental delays, but the parents write it off as the child being stubborn.

It’s really tough because I’ve known these friends forever but I also don’t feel like I can speak up- it’s just too personal. Both parents have incredible demanding careers and one has a very public job so the kids spend a lot of time with grandparents and their au pair. There isn’t the consistency to help the kid get the support they need and it’s tough to be adjacent to.

OP, this might require resources you don’t have. I think you’re at a public school, though, which will help- you can summon resources in a way that a private school teacher can’t.

A child this age still working on toileting skills is not that uncommon. Even kids who are fully trained can still have an accident. Is it that much of an issue to help change a child? There’s no reason to make them sit in soiled clothes.

[Anonymous]

I know a child that wasn't potty trained at 5. The child is severely disabled and was in public schools
. It's either a disability or lazy parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have friends with a child like this. The child is 4.5 and the preschool-8th grade school was furious with them but did renew their contract. I was shocked. The school did call the parents in to change the child and get them cleaned up, but they were often late so the child would sit and wait for 45 minutes or an hour in soiled clothing. I think the school relies on parents reading between the lines of attempted non-renewal conversations and this might have been the rare family that chose to not understand.

The child was adopted with disclosure of parental drug/alcohol abuse and there are definitely developmental delays, but the parents write it off as the child being stubborn.

It’s really tough because I’ve known these friends forever but I also don’t feel like I can speak up- it’s just too personal. Both parents have incredible demanding careers and one has a very public job so the kids spend a lot of time with grandparents and their au pair. There isn’t the consistency to help the kid get the support they need and it’s tough to be adjacent to.

OP, this might require resources you don’t have. I think you’re at a public school, though, which will help- you can summon resources in a way that a private school teacher can’t.

A child this age still working on toileting skills is not that uncommon. Even kids who are fully trained can still have an accident. Is it that much of an issue to help change a child? There’s no reason to make them sit in soiled clothes.

Could be FAS. Fetal alcohol syndrome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have friends with a child like this. The child is 4.5 and the preschool-8th grade school was furious with them but did renew their contract. I was shocked. The school did call the parents in to change the child and get them cleaned up, but they were often late so the child would sit and wait for 45 minutes or an hour in soiled clothing. I think the school relies on parents reading between the lines of attempted non-renewal conversations and this might have been the rare family that chose to not understand.

The child was adopted with disclosure of parental drug/alcohol abuse and there are definitely developmental delays, but the parents write it off as the child being stubborn.

It’s really tough because I’ve known these friends forever but I also don’t feel like I can speak up- it’s just too personal. Both parents have incredible demanding careers and one has a very public job so the kids spend a lot of time with grandparents and their au pair. There isn’t the consistency to help the kid get the support they need and it’s tough to be adjacent to.

OP, this might require resources you don’t have. I think you’re at a public school, though, which will help- you can summon resources in a way that a private school teacher can’t.

A child this age still working on toileting skills is not that uncommon. Even kids who are fully trained can still have an accident. Is it that much of an issue to help change a child? There’s no reason to make them sit in soiled clothes.

Could be FAS. Fetal alcohol syndrome.

That’s really jumping to conclusions. It could just be the kid is shy or scared about asking to use the bathroom. Sometimes kids are busy playing and forget to go. The most important thing is to be patient with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to imagine what kind of school you work in that you would have to write a post on DCUM asking about this issue. Have you no resources at your school?

I worked with a K student who was not potty trained but school personnel (spec ed teacher and paras) worked with him from the first day of school. I believe his parents were also participating at home, it was a team effort. He was autistic and also had weak muscle issues.

We also potty trained a 10 yr old who was much more seriously disabled whose parents were unable to train mostly due to having four other kids at home. Not lazy, just overwhelmed.

I have also worked with 2nd and 3rd graders who wet their pants regularly or needed help wiping. We did what we could to help them learn what they needed to learn.

These types of issues are common at all elementary schools, OP needs to find who they need to consult with and get them on board with this student's problem. I've never heard of a school where the classroom teacher was expected to potty train students while teaching the curriculum and navigating the daily schedule.

Thank you SO MUCH for writing this post. I was reading this thread and feeling crazy and disheartened by the attitude that somehow a 5 yr old struggling with a basic developmental issue was a ridiculous outlier. As a parent of a kid not much older with developmental delays, some of the comments on this thread are exactly what I fear teachers and other say about my child and my family when I'm not around. It's heartening to know there are educators who approach these issues with empathy and action, which is what is needed. Thank you so much.

+1. We've had an incredibly difficult time potty training our two kids. Both have ASD, although to a casual observer, one might just seem like a shy, stubborn child with incredible anxiety. That one mostly potty trained at 4, after 2+ years of solid work, but due to significant anxiety and fear issues associated with BMs, continued to have accidents for years. The other wasn't daytime-trained until 5. I'm not sure whether he didn't know or didn't care, but he'd let loose and carry on without so much as pausing. Without full-day ABA working on it, I don't know how he would have gotten potty trained.

In some ways, I can see how kids with fewer developmental delays and challenges would have an even harder time. Our first child didn't need ABA, but was probably too much for most preschools/child care centers to handle. We went through three centers that simply weren't able to work with him through potty training. And as he got older, it became even more challenging to find centers willing to work with him. Even if they said they would, they'd still put him back in pull-ups after one or two BM accidents in a day, setting everything back. If we hadn't been able to find the right center, he probably would have been having frequent accidents in kindergarten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume a disability or medical condition that has gone undiagnosed, and I would seek to involve both your child study team and your nurse. I would also recognize you need the parents, who are likely embarrassed and reacting in ways that look like they don't care, to be your allies and not to alienate them.

Kids this age are very motivated to be like their peers. That this kid is failing to do so is a sign that something is wrong, and you have a child find obligation under federal law.

-- also a teacher.

Not sure what a child study team is, never heard of one. The nurse is involved and made the same recommendation that I did…bring it up to pediatrician.

Do you work in a public or private school? If public, it's concerning that you don't know the process what to do when you are concerned that your student may have a disability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have friends with a child like this. The child is 4.5 and the preschool-8th grade school was furious with them but did renew their contract. I was shocked. The school did call the parents in to change the child and get them cleaned up, but they were often late so the child would sit and wait for 45 minutes or an hour in soiled clothing. I think the school relies on parents reading between the lines of attempted non-renewal conversations and this might have been the rare family that chose to not understand.

The child was adopted with disclosure of parental drug/alcohol abuse and there are definitely developmental delays, but the parents write it off as the child being stubborn.

It’s really tough because I’ve known these friends forever but I also don’t feel like I can speak up- it’s just too personal. Both parents have incredible demanding careers and one has a very public job so the kids spend a lot of time with grandparents and their au pair. There isn’t the consistency to help the kid get the support they need and it’s tough to be adjacent to.

OP, this might require resources you don’t have. I think you’re at a public school, though, which will help- you can summon resources in a way that a private school teacher can’t.

A child this age still working on toileting skills is not that uncommon. Even kids who are fully trained can still have an accident. Is it that much of an issue to help change a child? There’s no reason to make them sit in soiled clothes.

Depending on the state and the age group that is being taught, teachers may not be allowed to do any kind of changing. If that’s happening then it has to be under early childhood licensing or special education rules, at least in my not-east coast state. I’m not an educator so forgive me for not knowing the actual terms.

[Anonymous]

Our child had significant developmental delays. They goodness they had a great K. teachers who was warm and kind and helpful. Talk to the parents. We had been PT for years. We were far from lazy. But, they could not communicate when they had to go and needed to be on a regular schedule with the teacher prompting it. Take the kids regularly to the bathroom. Lots of 5 year olds have accidents especially when they get over involved in play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a psychiatrist and have had patients who weren’t able to teach their children developmentally appropriate behavior, either because of serious childhood trauma themselves (think sadistic parents, not neglectful ones), borderline intellect, or schizophrenia in the parent.

Personally, I would contact CPS, and they can go into the home and do an investigation.

I'd have to question your judgement as a psychiatrist. This is not CPS worthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also teach kindergarten and I had one untrained student last year and one this year. Luckily, one parent agreed to move the child down to pre-k since his birthday was in late August. The student last year was at least 5 and a half. No special needs, no speech delay. Mom just said he "wasn't interested" in using the bathroom. Admin told me that he would need to be able to change himself if he had an accident or his parent would need to come do it. It was amazing how quickly he was trained after Mom had to come in at least once a week.

This makes no sense nor helpful to a child who is 5.5 to go to prek. I'm not sure how that's even legal.

[Anonymous]

He wasn’t 5.5. He had just turned 5 the week before school started. If a parent agrees, they can make that decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I also teach kindergarten and I had one untrained student last year and one this year. Luckily, one parent agreed to move the child down to pre-k since his birthday was in late August. The student last year was at least 5 and a half. No special needs, no speech delay. Mom just said he "wasn't interested" in using the bathroom. Admin told me that he would need to be able to change himself if he had an accident or his parent would need to come do it. It was amazing how quickly he was trained after Mom had to come in at least once a week.

What are they wearing to school when they start? Are the parents just sending them in underwear knowing they are definitely going to have an accident?

Yes. Thankfully the nurse has a few extras pants. We used to get donations of extra uniforms but not anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try to help me understand why/how this happens. I am a kindergarten teacher. I have a child in my class who is 5 and not even a little potty trained. They will not attempt to use the bathroom, will not verbalize the need to go when asked, once it’s clear they are soiled they will not acknowledge it. I’ve been teaching a long time but this is a first.
Has anyone experienced this as a parent? If so, can you help me understand. I hate to admit it but I am losing my patience (internally, of course) with the situation. I’ve spoken to the parents and they are aware but do not seem concerned or particularly motivated to address it.
For what it’s worth, the child knows how to undress, clean themselves, throw away the dirty items, dress in clean clothes and put the dirty items in a bag to go home.
And yea, I have other speech and developmental concerns too.

Then refer the child for testing. There is probably an undiagnosed disability of some kind.

[Anonymous]

There is a difference between havimg accidents and not being potty trained.

Having accidents at 5 is developmentally appropriate. Not being potty trained isn't.