If you had a completely non-potty trained 5 year old

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worked with a 5 year old like that once, child had developmental disabilities but the reason why they hadn’t been trained was lack of parent follow through. No other reason than dad worked away from home and mom was too busy playing games on the computer to be bothered. She knew this as she admitted that she was the reason the child hadn’t been trained.

I had to have my supervisees train when we were in the home (so like 3 hours, 5-10 times per week) and after a couple months the mom hopped on board. Not ideal but it worked, much more quickly than I had expected actually.

I’d ask parent if there’s a medical concern and if not then train in school and find a way to teach mom what you did so she can follow through at home. Some parents just need someone to guide them in the right direction or to see that their child is capable of something they didn’t expect them to be capable of.

No, a kindergarten teacher does not have time to potty train a child in school. Preschool teachers can assist with training but K teachers cannot. The teacher needs to get assistance from the school's SpEd team and the nurse and there needs to be a plan in place with the parents to address the issue in order to help this child and minimize disruption in the class.

Also, just asking "is there a medical issue?" doesn't sound like it's good enough. They're maybe a medical issue the parent is unaware or doesn't even know how to ask the pediatrician about. Also with potty training, people have this idea that the only reason for delayed training (other than "lazy parents") is a physical disability, but kids with autism, ADHD, and anxiety all tend to train later and with more difficulty.

Also the teacher already noted there are speech and communication delays. Speech and communication are an important part of potty training because the child must learn to articulate the need to go. Again, as others have noted, this is a disability issue.

It's gross to me how many people in this thread are talking about this like it's obviously lazy parents when it's very clear this is a child with a disability of some kind. All the lazy parents I know still potty trained their kids by 5 because they were too lazy to keep changing diapers! Something else is going on here. This child needs help.

NP. I wouldn’t assume these parents are lazy; I’d assume they don’t know why their child is struggling and they don’t know how to go about addressing his/her issues. They need help from qualified people.

However, I have a relative whose child was still exclusively toe-walking well into elementary school. Doctors couldn’t find any physical reason for it. They recommended multiple interventions. Relative decided toe-walking was no big deal and didn’t follow any of the recommendations. Relative just kept leaving child with other family members for days at a time to go party. That poor kid is now 30 years old and still toe-walking. It is possible for child to have both developmental issues AND lazy parents.

[Anonymous]

You can find pull-ups in 5T-6T sizes, it’s not that unusual for a child to still have accidents at this age. Just be patient and remind him he needs to try to go the bathroom.

[Anonymous]

Th parents themselves may be developmentally delayed and not know how to teach this.

Be kind, please.

[Anonymous]

I had two of these. It runs in my family to not feel the sensation. They are fully trained now, but not until they were around seven. We also have a lot of nighttime accidents

[Anonymous]

To give you more practical advice, OP, I would suggest you say "It's time to go to the toilet", take the kid by the hand, and walk them over. Don't ask them, just tell them. Answering that question probably requires more language ability or body awareness than they have right now-- that's why you're in this situation. Do this at the times of day you decide work best. Hope that cuts down on the accidents.

I'm not sure if you need parent permission to use pullups, but you could do that after the first accident each day.

[Anonymous]

I’m a psychiatrist and have had patients who weren’t able to teach their children developmentally appropriate behavior, either because of serious childhood trauma themselves (think sadistic parents, not neglectful ones), borderline intellect, or schizophrenia in the parent.

Personally, I would contact CPS, and they can go into the home and do an investigation.

[Anonymous]

Mild-moderate ASD combined with moderate to severe ADHD, probably untreated at this age, will do that. My kid is newly 4 and still struggles with the potty a LOT. Like a PP said, he has a high tolerance for pain and discomfort. It’s like he doesn’t even know when he needs to go. But he will go, if you take him, otherwise it’s accident city. Anyway, at K age, both NT and ND kids really should go on a schedule at school. Take them to the restroom on a schedule as a group, don’t wait for them to self-initiate because a fair number of newly 5’s aren’t great self-initiators anyway.

[Anonymous]

Is this kid coming with extra clothes every day? I’m skeptical this is a real thing because after the first few days any reasonable school would have had a meeting with the parents to find a solution. You are saying this has been happening for an entire month?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP have you ever potty trained a child?

I've potty trained three and two were easy and one was not. I can tell you from experience that cleaning up accidents (or changing diapers) of an older child who is struggling to potty train is not easier than potty training a child. But it's sometimes what happens. In our case the child who potty trained late (not 5, but a little after age 4, still way later than the other two) has ADHD and there are a number of factors that make it harder for her than for other kids. She tends to be dismissive of bodily discomfort (also does this with pain) and will just power through rather than say something. She hates stopping what she's doing and it can cause anxiety to disrupt an activity in order to go to the bathroom. She also used to have major issues with using bathrooms outside our home, which would lead to her withholding poop, which would lead to constipation, which tends to make it even harder for kids to recognize the urge to urinate. It was very difficult but trust me when I say that we were very aware of these issues and working hard to address them.

Agree with the teacher PP who noted that what looks like indifference to you might be embarrassment, and will add that it could also be due to conditioning themselves to remain calm/neutral to the point of detachment regarding their child's potty issues, because a very late training child can be a massive form of stress and that can lead parents to become intense and stressed about it, which also tends to make pottying issues worse and lead to anxiety and withholding in the child. One thing we learned from the behavioral therapist we worked with was to adopt an approach of nonchalance, "it will happen when it happens," not because we were indifferent but because our child needed to internalize the idea that this process was in their control and that we had faith it would resolve. It took a great deal of willpower to do this.

Also agree with teacher PP that you need to view the parents as allies in this, and should absolutely reach out to resources at the school to come up with solutions that help the child in moving towards independence in this area without taking all your time away from the other children in class. By the way, whether the child has a diagnosis or not, this issue will qualify them for an IEP so if that hasn't been discussed, you should initiate that process.

A kindergartener is 1+ year older than someone who is a little older than 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to imagine what kind of school you work in that you would have to write a post on DCUM asking about this issue. Have you no resources at your school?

I worked with a K student who was not potty trained but school personnel (spec ed teacher and paras) worked with him from the first day of school. I believe his parents were also participating at home, it was a team effort. He was autistic and also had weak muscle issues.

We also potty trained a 10 yr old who was much more seriously disabled whose parents were unable to train mostly due to having four other kids at home. Not lazy, just overwhelmed.

I have also worked with 2nd and 3rd graders who wet their pants regularly or needed help wiping. We did what we could to help them learn what they needed to learn.

These types of issues are common at all elementary schools, OP needs to find who they need to consult with and get them on board with this student's problem. I've never heard of a school where the classroom teacher was expected to potty train students while teaching the curriculum and navigating the daily schedule.

Thank you SO MUCH for writing this post. I was reading this thread and feeling crazy and disheartened by the attitude that somehow a 5 yr old struggling with a basic developmental issue was a ridiculous outlier. As a parent of a kid not much older with developmental delays, some of the comments on this thread are exactly what I fear teachers and other say about my child and my family when I'm not around. It's heartening to know there are educators who approach these issues with empathy and action, which is what is needed. Thank you so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP have you ever potty trained a child?

I've potty trained three and two were easy and one was not. I can tell you from experience that cleaning up accidents (or changing diapers) of an older child who is struggling to potty train is not easier than potty training a child. But it's sometimes what happens. In our case the child who potty trained late (not 5, but a little after age 4, still way later than the other two) has ADHD and there are a number of factors that make it harder for her than for other kids. She tends to be dismissive of bodily discomfort (also does this with pain) and will just power through rather than say something. She hates stopping what she's doing and it can cause anxiety to disrupt an activity in order to go to the bathroom. She also used to have major issues with using bathrooms outside our home, which would lead to her withholding poop, which would lead to constipation, which tends to make it even harder for kids to recognize the urge to urinate. It was very difficult but trust me when I say that we were very aware of these issues and working hard to address them.

Agree with the teacher PP who noted that what looks like indifference to you might be embarrassment, and will add that it could also be due to conditioning themselves to remain calm/neutral to the point of detachment regarding their child's potty issues, because a very late training child can be a massive form of stress and that can lead parents to become intense and stressed about it, which also tends to make pottying issues worse and lead to anxiety and withholding in the child. One thing we learned from the behavioral therapist we worked with was to adopt an approach of nonchalance, "it will happen when it happens," not because we were indifferent but because our child needed to internalize the idea that this process was in their control and that we had faith it would resolve. It took a great deal of willpower to do this.

Also agree with teacher PP that you need to view the parents as allies in this, and should absolutely reach out to resources at the school to come up with solutions that help the child in moving towards independence in this area without taking all your time away from the other children in class. By the way, whether the child has a diagnosis or not, this issue will qualify them for an IEP so if that hasn't been discussed, you should initiate that process.

A kindergartener is 1+ year older than someone who is a little older than 4.

OP asked with bewilderment how a child could possibly not be potty trained at age 5 and I explained what it looks like to potty train a child with special needs that can impede this milestone, and also why the parents did not react as she expected them to when she raised the issue. I should note that my child potty trained at age 4 because of the assistance we received from the pediatrician, a behavioral therapist, and two very patient preschool teachers. So I don't find it totally out of the realm of possibility that parents with fewer resources, or less energy or will, could wind up with a still-not-potty-trained 5 year old.

[Anonymous]

I also teach kindergarten and I had one untrained student last year and one this year. Luckily, one parent agreed to move the child down to pre-k since his birthday was in late August. The student last year was at least 5 and a half. No special needs, no speech delay. Mom just said he "wasn't interested" in using the bathroom. Admin told me that he would need to be able to change himself if he had an accident or his parent would need to come do it. It was amazing how quickly he was trained after Mom had to come in at least once a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a psychiatrist and have had patients who weren’t able to teach their children developmentally appropriate behavior, either because of serious childhood trauma themselves (think sadistic parents, not neglectful ones), borderline intellect, or schizophrenia in the parent.

Personally, I would contact CPS, and they can go into the home and do an investigation.

CPS wouldn't investigate this. They have much bigger fish to fry than an untrained 5 yr old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also teach kindergarten and I had one untrained student last year and one this year. Luckily, one parent agreed to move the child down to pre-k since his birthday was in late August. The student last year was at least 5 and a half. No special needs, no speech delay. Mom just said he "wasn't interested" in using the bathroom. Admin told me that he would need to be able to change himself if he had an accident or his parent would need to come do it. It was amazing how quickly he was trained after Mom had to come in at least once a week.

What are they wearing to school when they start? Are the parents just sending them in underwear knowing they are definitely going to have an accident?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a psychiatrist and have had patients who weren’t able to teach their children developmentally appropriate behavior, either because of serious childhood trauma themselves (think sadistic parents, not neglectful ones), borderline intellect, or schizophrenia in the parent.

Personally, I would contact CPS, and they can go into the home and do an investigation.

Can I ask where you’re located? By my standards — as a mandated reporter — this is not a CPS issue, based on what we know so far. And a CPS report and investigation has its own risk of serious childhood trauma— at least with the systems that I’m familiar with.

I’d start with the school nurse.