Anybody read tomorrow’s Carolyn Hax?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.

Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.

I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.

He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.

He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.

So what to do about it?

Speaking as a wife, not an advice columnist, you:
1) become a dom in the bedroom. He is going to be punished for not cleaning up that coffee. Remind him of that when he forgets. That makes it kind of fun and sexy, but it's still a negative reinforcement, and he's got to clean up the coffee.
2) Make damn sure that YOU clean up the coffee every time (and anything else you said that you would do). He probably holds you to an even higher standard than he holds himself and notes every time you are "hypocritical."

Not saying that this makes for a great, healthy relationship. I am sure that seeing a therapist and working on your own issues with boundaries and why you married a person like this would be the healthier approach. But it's a good band-aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This issue is on point for so many people.

+1 - I could have literally written this almost verbatim. I mean, right down to the asking for more help with a baby and having, "Oh, now I'm a bad father" thrown back in my face.

I wish I would have read this 15 years ago.

I really hope my kids still talk to me once they leave home. I love them so much, but there is so much I've screwed up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read that article, and what rang out loud and clear to me was that the DH needed to be screened for anxiety and ADHD. Untreated/undiagnosed ADHD in stressful times (aka a new baby’s arrival) can look a lot like what’s described.

Jesus, I beg of you - stop with the ADHD on EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.

Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.

I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.

He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.

He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.

So what to do about it?

Speaking as a wife, not an advice columnist, you:
1) become a dom in the bedroom. He is going to be punished for not cleaning up that coffee. Remind him of that when he forgets. That makes it kind of fun and sexy, but it's still a negative reinforcement, and he's got to clean up the coffee.
2) Make damn sure that YOU clean up the coffee every time (and anything else you said that you would do). He probably holds you to an even higher standard than he holds himself and notes every time you are "hypocritical."

Not saying that this makes for a great, healthy relationship. I am sure that seeing a therapist and working on your own issues with boundaries and why you married a person like this would be the healthier approach. But it's a good band-aid

Really, I don't think having more sex with him is going to be a punishment for not cleaning up the coffee. Thanks. No.
No, I'm not perfect, obviously. I'm pretty flawed. But when it is pointed out to me that DH would like me to do something differently, (e.g close the shower curtain better so there are no puddles on the floor) I don't get huffy and defensive. I say "I'm sorry, I'll try to do better." And then I do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Carolyn Hax can go either way for me, but I thought her response was spot on in this case. I was in a relationship where this was an issue. We could be arguing about the most simplistic thing (like, could you please clean up after yourself when you spill coffee on the kitchen counter?) and their response would always be defensive. Most of our arguments were derailed by their "off ramps" from the argument. It's a diversion tactic to move away from the issue at hand and change the narrative to where spouse becomes the victim, the actual issue is forgotten about, and the argument becomes about ME -- my tone, my timing of raising an issue while they're stressed from work (they're always stressed from work!), I'm not listening to their response... It's manipulative as hell.

Yes! (OP here) he gets defensive and then I have to make sure he's OK. Yes. He gets defensive and paints himself the victem, as if I really think he's the word person in the word.

I just thought he was insecure. But that's not it at all, is it? He's secure as hell and is manipulating me.

He's insecure AND he's manipulating you.

He's defensive because he really does feel like he did something wrong. He knows that he is supposed to clean up the coffee from the kitchen counter, and he feels bad about it. He can't handle the bad feeling on his own, so he makes you make him feel better.

Exactly. He doesn't know how to work through the bad feeling on his own so he deflects them by diverting the argument toward something that makes him the victim.

[Anonymous]

I also think her response is spot on and wish I would have read it about 15 years ago at the beginning of my marriage - it would have saved me a lot of heartache to understand this dynamic back then.

OP, what you're experiencing is co-dependency. Essentially you're being trained by an emotionally immature spouse to believe that you're responsible for his feelings. You're not. You're responsible for you - your decisions, your actions, communicating your wants and needs, and setting and enforcing boundaries. It's sounds like you're communicating just fine, but you're not enforcing your boundaries (enough) so that you're allowing/he's able to keep pushing them back. It's 100% okay to tell him that he needs to be responsible for his shit. If he's feeling shame or reading into your comments things that aren't there, it's on him to deal with it.

[Anonymous]

My DH is like this (or was). His mother is stil like this - everything he tells her results in him having to soothe her anxiety about whatever she said.

I initially didn’t understand how DH was manipulating me, but about 2 years into our relationship I realized that every time I expressed my own concerns about our relationship I ended up comforting him.

I don’t know exactly how it happened but I started calling him whenever he did it, and once we had kids (also married) I told him he needed to manage his own feelings whenever he pushed anything back on me. Having kids and seeing him try to guilt them/manipulate them even as toddlers made me step in every time — I am determined to break the pattern that DH’s parents clearly passed on to him.

Our oldest is now 8 and DH really doesn’t do it anymore. He’s a good and kind person, so I think calling him on the behavior made him recognize that it wasn’t helpful or productive, and also how f*caked up the dynamic he has with his parents is. He still slips into this mode sometimes, but will stop when I say something.

[Anonymous]

Anyone else BTDT and successfully managed their way out of the situation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else BTDT and successfully managed their way out of the situation?

My DH occasionally did this and I've learned that not reacting or engaging takes care of it. It's a minor tendency on his part, though; generally he's a very sturdy person.

I think her advice for therapy (individual and couples) is on-point, but (a) that's not easy to find these days especially and (b) it takes time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else BTDT and successfully managed their way out of the situation?

My DH occasionally did this and I've learned that not reacting or engaging takes care of it. It's a minor tendency on his part, though; generally he's a very sturdy person.

I think her advice for therapy (individual and couples) is on-point, but (a) that's not easy to find these days especially and (b) it takes time.

So … by ignoring it you mean walk around his behavior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read that article, and what rang out loud and clear to me was that the DH needed to be screened for anxiety and ADHD. Untreated/undiagnosed ADHD in stressful times (aka a new baby’s arrival) can look a lot like what’s described.

Jesus, I beg of you - stop with the ADHD on EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

Lol. +1

[Anonymous]

I think she's pretty wise most of the time. I haven't read this column. Also, I'm a man.

[Anonymous]

Carolyn Hax's column makes sense to me. I don't think it's based on the sex of the crazily defensive emotional abuser. Although some of the column's advice might not be realistic for people who can't afford therapy, I think it's helpful to recognize subtle forms of abuse. Maybe abuse is too strong a word, but the kind of reaction described is pretty bad.

Ironically, you could imagine the husband writing in to Carolyn Hax and receiving similar advice. Another form of emotional abuse is constant nagging and expression of dissatisfaction. It's hard to know exactly what was happening with that couple. Maybe both of them were a little abusive? It's definitely possible, but I'd guess the woman writing to Carolyn Hax is probably mostly right.

I'm male and I was pretty shocked when I was talking with a friend about the dynamics of my marriage--my wife was very defensive like the husband in the column but she also was very critical of my parenting skills and mocked me in front of the kids--and my friend told me that I was the victim of emotional abuse. Before my friend used that word I thought we just disagreed a lot. Recognizing the abuse eventually helped me muster the courage to leave (a few years later). Almost nobody knew what was going on, but the kids eventually figured it out when they were in their late teens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else BTDT and successfully managed their way out of the situation?

My DH occasionally did this and I've learned that not reacting or engaging takes care of it. It's a minor tendency on his part, though; generally he's a very sturdy person.

I think her advice for therapy (individual and couples) is on-point, but (a) that's not easy to find these days especially and (b) it takes time.

So … by ignoring it you mean walk around his behavior?

No, I mean I would say something like, “if you’re going to overreact, the conversation is over now. Let me know when you want to discuss this calmly” and then, yes, I would walk away. My DH actually does calm down and apologize and discuss things when his head is cooler. There were times early in our marriage when I would get upset and it would escalate.

But like I said, it wasn’t a frequent thing for us and overall, DH is a very secure person. I don’t get that sense from the OP. I have a good friend whose husband reacts like this constantly and it’s exhausting just to hear about, so I’m sure living with it must be a nightmare.

[Anonymous]

^^oh, but you know who does this a lot, is my mom. And it’s part of why we don’t have as close a relationship as either of us would like. It happened recently over something; when she wailed, “it’s all my fault,” I said, no, it’s not all your fault, but it’s also not okay.

My kids do this sometimes, too, and I have the same response. Calmly correct the misconception and then move on. With them it’s developmental, so they’re mostly growing out of it.