This dynamic is so frustrating!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This really depends on the group. If this is a friend group or your immediate family the answers are not necessarily the same. Because the real issue is that there is a pretense that the relationship is in limbo. If Susie just apologized for calling me a see you next tuesday at college graduation we could all just MOVE ON.

But this is a false pretense. Your relationship with this person is over. You will never regain the level of friendship you had, you will never really trust them again, and as a result, the group will never be harmonious in it's totality again. You cannot undo years worth of accumulated bitterness in a relationship when you aren't like, going to therapy with them and committing yourselves to healing, which is not something anyone would do with a friend.

This isn't your fault OP, but it is true. And the drama and strife comes from everyone pretending it is not true. You need to accept that the relationship as a friendship is over. You are no longer friends. But you can choose to be civil acquaintances, where you are civil and friendly when you see one another but there is no depth to the relationship. And this is how you remove the burden of your argument from others. Something is happening where things are 'unsettled' so you need to fix it. Nothing is unsettled, you and Susie just aren't close! So you don't go to thinks that are primarily Susie events, you don't invite Susie to things that are primarily you events, and you treat Susie like a distant acquaintance at the things you are both attending.

Don't talk about it or obsess about it anymore. You don't have to forgive him/her, I would not either. You just need to either decide to excise them from your life completely, or to figure out how to coexist in a distant but nondisruptive manner.

What you shouldn't do is make friends pick sides, agonize over it ad nauseum, or make a big deal about it if you are in her presence. You just do you. I had two friends that got caught up in a similar dynamic to what you describe. In that case it was one friend not taking the other's side in another relationship schism, and there were never any really CLEAR expectations set. But it was the same, a decade of them just growing to dislike each other more and more because this 'wrong' hung over their heads and the entire friend group. In the end, the entire group fell apart because the wronged girl could not be around the other one without it turning into a THING. And like, that is fine, but that wronged girl thinks that she is the victim. And in the end, her not letting go of that personal beef, or not figuring out how to not let it bleed into the group, ended like 5/6 other friendships. She never had an obligation to forgive my other friend, but she let her hate and anger take down a lot of collateral damage. Because really, at some point, there was nothing the other person could do to 'make it right'.

If this was a family member, I would basically have the same advice except walking away entirely and cutting them out is more difficult. Sometimes, depending on the relative and the other personalities involved, it is worth it to make pretend amends, but that is very situation specific.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of this because I've seen something similar happen, but I don't think you get the dynamics right. For starters, the rest of the friend group is NEVER just innocent bystanders. Some individuals might be, but there are always people who make the divide worse. The most obvious problem is the gossip -- people talk, it pretty much always makes things worse. No one ever feels more forgiving when they know they are being discussed by the group. It makes them retreat to their corners and dig in because they feel defensive, like they have to plead their case now.

Like I can think of one example where a similar thing happened between two women in a group I was part of, and one just wanted an apology for some behavior. Well a third friend thought she was "helping" and explained that the reason an apology hadn't been made is that the offending party did not "believe she had anything to apologize for." Well this was like dynamite in the water because it just made the person who wanted the apology feel like she was being gaslit, and it also meant that when the offending party did finally apologize (much, much later, like almost two years after this all went down), she was super skeptical that it was a genuine apology. And people were mad at her for that because it was like "oh my god you wanted this forever and finally got it and why can't you be happy?" But of course she's not happy because when are you ever happy to have to literally beg someone for an apology, be told they don't even think you deserve one, and then finally get it like a year later. Like does that make you feel valued as a person? Of course not.

Who knows, maybe it would have gone exactly the same if the third friend hadn't stuck her nose in, but from my vantage point (I was there when this exchange happened), it honestly just blew the whole thing up more. Don't be a go between. If you have two friends having a fight like this, you have to tell them "I love you both, but you have to talk to each other and work it out -- this is between you." That's literally the only way to handle. And if they aren't mature enough to discuss it and sort it, then yeah, some friendships are going to break. But the idea that one person is taking down a whole group is not accurate. Usually it's a whole host of dumb behavior by multiple people, plus a layer of gossip, that takes it out. It's a group effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, we literally cannot control other people. This person is not going to apologize and no one in the bigger group is going to make them or change their own behavior toward them. These are facts.

What helped me was choosing not to give them any more time or energy or space in my head. That is what people mean by let it go. You have magnified what happened over years and it will continue until you choose to change your thinking pattern and energy around it.

When people behave badly towards me I try to practice gratitude that they have shown me their true colors. Then I keep them at a distance and am minimally civil if they need to be in my life or I cut them off.

I do not know your spiritual practice but I literally thank God for the people he has removed from my life. It created space for others, some of whom (not all!) were kinder and more worth my time and emotional investment.

You are choosing to make this person and their behavior one of the most important features of your life, for a decade now. You can make a different choice. Have a plan, when your thoughts go to him/her, think of something else, say 5 things you are grateful for. Literally train yourself to give him/her no thought.

Did OP say it's been a decade? I thought just several years. I mean, a long time either way, but this comment confused me (the advice is pretty good though).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This really depends on the group. If this is a friend group or your immediate family the answers are not necessarily the same. Because the real issue is that there is a pretense that the relationship is in limbo. If Susie just apologized for calling me a see you next tuesday at college graduation we could all just MOVE ON.

But this is a false pretense. Your relationship with this person is over. You will never regain the level of friendship you had, you will never really trust them again, and as a result, the group will never be harmonious in it's totality again. You cannot undo years worth of accumulated bitterness in a relationship when you aren't like, going to therapy with them and committing yourselves to healing, which is not something anyone would do with a friend.

This isn't your fault OP, but it is true. And the drama and strife comes from everyone pretending it is not true. You need to accept that the relationship as a friendship is over. You are no longer friends. But you can choose to be civil acquaintances, where you are civil and friendly when you see one another but there is no depth to the relationship. And this is how you remove the burden of your argument from others. Something is happening where things are 'unsettled' so you need to fix it. Nothing is unsettled, you and Susie just aren't close! So you don't go to thinks that are primarily Susie events, you don't invite Susie to things that are primarily you events, and you treat Susie like a distant acquaintance at the things you are both attending.

Don't talk about it or obsess about it anymore. You don't have to forgive him/her, I would not either. You just need to either decide to excise them from your life completely, or to figure out how to coexist in a distant but nondisruptive manner.

What you shouldn't do is make friends pick sides, agonize over it ad nauseum, or make a big deal about it if you are in her presence. You just do you. I had two friends that got caught up in a similar dynamic to what you describe. In that case it was one friend not taking the other's side in another relationship schism, and there were never any really CLEAR expectations set. But it was the same, a decade of them just growing to dislike each other more and more because this 'wrong' hung over their heads and the entire friend group. In the end, the entire group fell apart because the wronged girl could not be around the other one without it turning into a THING. And like, that is fine, but that wronged girl thinks that she is the victim. And in the end, her not letting go of that personal beef, or not figuring out how to not let it bleed into the group, ended like 5/6 other friendships. She never had an obligation to forgive my other friend, but she let her hate and anger take down a lot of collateral damage. Because really, at some point, there was nothing the other person could do to 'make it right'.

If this was a family member, I would basically have the same advice except walking away entirely and cutting them out is more difficult. Sometimes, depending on the relative and the other personalities involved, it is worth it to make pretend amends, but that is very situation specific.

I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of this because I've seen something similar happen, but I don't think you get the dynamics right. For starters, the rest of the friend group is NEVER just innocent bystanders. Some individuals might be, but there are always people who make the divide worse. The most obvious problem is the gossip -- people talk, it pretty much always makes things worse. No one ever feels more forgiving when they know they are being discussed by the group. It makes them retreat to their corners and dig in because they feel defensive, like they have to plead their case now.

Like I can think of one example where a similar thing happened between two women in a group I was part of, and one just wanted an apology for some behavior. Well a third friend thought she was "helping" and explained that the reason an apology hadn't been made is that the offending party did not "believe she had anything to apologize for." Well this was like dynamite in the water because it just made the person who wanted the apology feel like she was being gaslit, and it also meant that when the offending party did finally apologize (much, much later, like almost two years after this all went down), she was super skeptical that it was a genuine apology. And people were mad at her for that because it was like "oh my god you wanted this forever and finally got it and why can't you be happy?" But of course she's not happy because when are you ever happy to have to literally beg someone for an apology, be told they don't even think you deserve one, and then finally get it like a year later. Like does that make you feel valued as a person? Of course not.

Who knows, maybe it would have gone exactly the same if the third friend hadn't stuck her nose in, but from my vantage point (I was there when this exchange happened), it honestly just blew the whole thing up more. Don't be a go between. If you have two friends having a fight like this, you have to tell them "I love you both, but you have to talk to each other and work it out -- this is between you." That's literally the only way to handle. And if they aren't mature enough to discuss it and sort it, then yeah, some friendships are going to break. But the idea that one person is taking down a whole group is not accurate. Usually it's a whole host of dumb behavior by multiple people, plus a layer of gossip, that takes it out. It's a group effort.

I'm the PP and I agree. The friends get involved for sure and frequently do more damage than good. But its also more complicated than you're describing. I have seen versions of this a couple times too and the problem is is that the 'chatter' is always going on in these groups. It turns into 'gossip' at some point, but its hard for friends to intuitively know when a real foundational thing has occurred and the chatter that is normally normal becomes destructive. And the wounded and wounder are also contributing to this chatter themselves almost always by continuing to bring it up and pound it into the dirt themselves. In the situation I describe above, the wounded one brought it up over and over because (IMO) she wanted the rest of us to pick her. Maybe not like, consciously, but that is what it was, she was constantly going over her side, reinforcing the stories.

I think my thesis still stands, which is that if OP 'drops it' in that she can manage it to no longer be a topic of conversation, she can still not be close to the offender. At this point, all OP is holding onto is ensuring everyone KNOWS the offender still hasn't apologized. I wonder, OP, which of the following stances your friends think you are taking:

1) "I am Sally, over the years the people in my friend group have gotten closer and some of us have drifted apart but I just love getting together with the girls from high school for Christmas dinner, its one of my favorite events!"

2) "I am Sally, I am sticking up for myself and not forgiving Susie for something she did. My friends just can't seem to accept this and let me be me"

Both plausibly are from someone who may have decided to not be friends with someone in a friend group, one is selling their side, and pushing the discord onto the person they are talking to. Perhaps, for example, causing them to go talk to other people in the group to see if they can smooth things over (something I believe the speaker KNOWS when they talk like this). The other acknowledges that they aren't close with everyone, but appreciates the group.

The groups that last, IMO, have members that behave more like #1 than #2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you’re dragging other people into this, it’s a bridge too far.

OP here. What does this mean? Can you explain?

You said it’s awkward for your family and you can’t be at the same events? That’s dragging other people into your drama.

Your relative sucks. The way to move forward is to ignore them when you’re at the family reunion. You don’t have to invite them over to your house or be best friends. You just to not drag other people into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would say start moving certain of those people out of your life. If theyre going to not stand up for you and play the "both sides are at fault" game, then limit your time with them. You know the level of respect you deserve in a relationship, and this aint it. Focus on bringing in new, GOOD people who will truly care about you. And enjoy your new future!

This!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you’re dragging other people into this, it’s a bridge too far.

OP here. What does this mean? Can you explain?

You wrote "It is awkward for others and has led to other schisms." So obviously you have dragged other people into this. It's unclear how, but after several years of an incident that you yourself describe as "dumb and hurtful" -- as opposed to something criminal or truly zero-tolerance where you'd expect other people to take your side -- you need to stop bringing other people into it. It sounds like what you may be doing is refusing to attend events where this person is, or pressuring third parties into not inviting this person. You need to cut that out. All you can do is decide not to attend events where this person will be, and accept the consequences.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks for the insight— I have appreciated all the comments here as a kind of catharsis, even the negative ones. I can see this isn’t the most uncommon problem in the world, which does make me feel better.

I wasn’t really looking for advice. As I said, this dynamic has gone on for years. The loved one is not technically a family member, but I’m not talking about a group of girlfriends. This is an extremely close family friend I have known since childhood who is tied up with both my family and some very close friends in complicated ways. I simply don’t speak to them anymore and I do choose to avoid seeing them if I can. But sometimes it is not possible, like at a family wedding. Though normally that’s a big enough crowd that it’s not a big deal.

It’s coming up now because my people are planning holiday gatherings after a long break during Covid and everyone is amped. I am being choosy about what I attend for several reasons (money, and my energy) but yes of course I’d also like to minimize my interactions with this person. I think some are feeling pressed just in general and it’s coming out as “why can’t you just get over this thing” even if I have not even mentioned it because they are reading through the lines that I am declining done invites for this reason. I personally don’t feel I am dragging anyone into anything— this is something I talk to my therapist about but I don’t bring up with, say, my sister, because of course she is going to feel a way about it. But I also see how others wish this problem didn’t exist. Me too! I just can’t unilaterally decide to make it go away without a semi-lobotomy. And since my time and energy are previous, I just choose to spend it elsewhere. Some don’t like that.

I would LOVE if everyone just got along and there was no issues. But I simply do not feel it is my job to facilitate that by spending a lot of time in close quarters with someone who has shown they do not respect me. Again, no advice needed, simply venting. I don’t think I’m perfect but everyone makes their choices and I am happy with mine even if I sometimes wish others would make better choices when it comes to their specific behavior towards me. Oh well.

Gonna be a long holiday season, folks!

[Anonymous]

^precious, not previous! Damn typos. My thumbs are dumb :/

[Anonymous]

If this happened years ago and you are still talking about it in therapy, then you might be fixating and you might actually be the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this happened years ago and you are still talking about it in therapy, then you might be fixating and you might actually be the problem.

NP. You sound like a toxic person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this happened years ago and you are still talking about it in therapy, then you might be fixating and you might actually be the problem.

Lol, 99% of what I talk about in therapy happened years ago. I don’t need therapy to deal with my day to day. It’s for the deep cuts.

[Anonymous]

Wow you sound completely dramatic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow you sound completely dramatic

x2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow you sound completely dramatic

+1000, And yes you are dragging people into it by hoping they choose sides. Go to the parties and ignore your nemesis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow you sound completely dramatic

+1000, And yes you are dragging people into it by hoping they choose sides. Go to the parties and ignore your nemesis.

This. People are telling you to get over it because it's been years. It's ridiculous to be acting like this.