Affirmative Action should be income-based, not race-based

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The flood of white tears in this thread is amazing. Of all the problems minority kids face today, this is what you guys cry about.

The disdain for white folks in this thread, who lose college seats to those less qualified, is amazing. I wonder if the bigota going on about "white trash" are black?

And being kept out of med school, a lifelong dream, so that a lesser scoring minority gets in instead of you is a big deal.

Why is med school your lifelong dream? Do you hope to help heal the sick, and reduce the suffering in the world? There are many other professions where you can do this, and not worry about the limited number of spots. You could be a nurse, or a physician's assistant. Or go into medical research, and maybe get a PhD, help find cures for some of these diseases.

Or is med school your lifelong dream because you want to make a lot of money?

1) If making a lot of money was my dream, I'd be an overpaid lawyer - like many on DCUM. Med school is much tougher than law school.

2) I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about a white person who has dreamed of med school his entire life, earned nearly all As, and found himself displaced by a black kid with a B average because.....he's black.

3) And why should the more academically accomplished white student have to dial back his dream, and instead become a PA or nurse, so a black stident with lower grades can get HIS dream of med school? Why aren't you asking why the lower-scoring black student adjust HIS goals and become a PA? Why should the white kid make the sacrifice when he is the better student?

In your fantasy world. You all make sh1t up 24x7.

Don't tell me that you are unaware that white kids with 3.8 GPA are rejected from the very same institutions that accept black kids with a 3.2. Apaprently, you don't like the truth, so you claim it's made-up sh!t.

You leftists demand the continuation of AA policies that involve significantly lower admission stamdards for black kids, and then want to deny that black kids are getting in as a result of racial preferences. You can't have it both ways.

Why didn’t that white kid beat out one of all the other white kids and Asians who got into med school? Because plenty of them made it.

You liberals are just so illogical when it comes to racial favoritism toward blacks in admissions,

Why should a white kid with a 3.8 have to compete with the white kids with 3.9s, as opposed to just competing with all,applicants. Why should the black kids be put in a sub-standard group, where a 3.2 gets you a good chance of admission, and compete only against other blacks? Af you saying that blacks are so inferior that the only chance they have is if they don't have to compete against whites?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP, you are fundamentally right but as you can see too many folks are still addicted to racism.

It's like a virus, and no effective treatment exists.

OP here, and thank you.

What some of the people around here who are saying that we still need race-based AA because blacks still are trailing seem unable to comprehend is that an SES-based AA policy would still help poor blacks. It seems to me that they are arguing that AFFLUENT blacks should still get the advantage too, even though that discriminates angainst poor whites. That is what is racist.

liberals need to keep blacks thinking they are the victim class and that whites are all racist

Not liberals.

The illiberal fakes that pose as "liberals" in the US.

We should just call them racists.

Hey now... let's not call them racists. Liberals have good intentions even if they've chosen a path that includes support for racist policies like affirmative action. Just because someone supports a racist policy, doesn't mean they are racists. They may think the racist policy is a temporary corrective measure to achieve greater equality. We can attack the evil of racist policies, but lets not call our liberal friends "racists".

I will continue to consider my liberal neighbors racists because everyone of them told me they came to the area for schools, that is the 99% white schools.

That's just irrational. People who move for good schools are not doing so because of the demographics of the schools. People who send their kids to TJ aren't doing so because it's majority Asian. Again, let's stop it with the name-calling unless you can point to actual racist beliefs.

Do you consider people racists when they say they want to make sure their kids are with the right element? Can make friends with kids who are like them? Want to make sure kids aren’t in classes with kids who don’t have parental support? I have heard these and similar comments among parents in my Arlington school

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The flood of white tears in this thread is amazing. Of all the problems minority kids face today, this is what you guys cry about.

The disdain for white folks in this thread, who lose college seats to those less qualified, is amazing. I wonder if the bigota going on about "white trash" are black?

And being kept out of med school, a lifelong dream, so that a lesser scoring minority gets in instead of you is a big deal.

Why is med school your lifelong dream? Do you hope to help heal the sick, and reduce the suffering in the world? There are many other professions where you can do this, and not worry about the limited number of spots. You could be a nurse, or a physician's assistant. Or go into medical research, and maybe get a PhD, help find cures for some of these diseases.

Or is med school your lifelong dream because you want to make a lot of money?

1) If making a lot of money was my dream, I'd be an overpaid lawyer - like many on DCUM. Med school is much tougher than law school.

2) I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about a white person who has dreamed of med school his entire life, earned nearly all As, and found himself displaced by a black kid with a B average because.....he's black.

3) And why should the more academically accomplished white student have to dial back his dream, and instead become a PA or nurse, so a black stident with lower grades can get HIS dream of med school? Why aren't you asking why the lower-scoring black student adjust HIS goals and become a PA? Why should the white kid make the sacrifice when he is the better student?

In your fantasy world. You all make sh1t up 24x7.

Don't tell me that you are unaware that white kids with 3.8 GPA are rejected from the very same institutions that accept black kids with a 3.2. Apaprently, you don't like the truth, so you claim it's made-up sh!t.

You leftists demand the continuation of AA policies that involve significantly lower admission stamdards for black kids, and then want to deny that black kids are getting in as a result of racial preferences. You can't have it both ways.

My point was that you made up that particular scenario. It's fiction. That is not something that actually happened to someone you know. It's all in your head.

First, let's talk about the earlier example that you made up.

1) Med school admissions is crazy competitive. "Nearly all As" isn't quite good enough for some schools. It was far more likely that he was NOT displaced by anyone. He just didn't make the cut.
2) Let's say you do actually know a kid who applied for med school -- how far into the process did he get? How many interviews did he get?
3) How do you know the GPA for the URM kids who were accepted into those schools? Why do you think they have a "B average"?
4) Why do you think it was a black person vs. another URM?

And then let's talk about this new scenario that you just made up.
5) Now you are comparing a 3.8 vs. 3.2. Why are you changing the details now?

BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FACTS. You are just making up scenarios to support your argument.

Stop the BS and come back with facts if you are trying to make up a point.

OMG. You really are in denial.

The example I used is right from the AAMC website (which another poster linked to) that clearly shows how many whites with 3.8 are accepted/rejected compared to blacks with that average. News flash: plenty of whites get rejected at the level, and virtually all blacks get in. Now look at the 3.2, where if you're a white, you won't get into med school. A black with that GPA - quite common to get in.

Stop,demanding that preferential treatment be given to blacks, and then pitch a fit when someone points out how that means blacks with much lower grades than whites get admitted. A the difference is substantial.

I never denied the criteria for majority kids is different than URMs.

I just called you out on a fake sob story THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

Once again, you are FOS.

[Anonymous]

White people complaining about black kids taking their kid's spot in college Wow. Let. It. GO. Life is not fair for anyone. Stop crying. Billy will get into med school. According to most of you, the black kids will fail out by the second semester, Billy will just have to sit out a semester or go to community college for a little while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flood of white tears in this thread is amazing. Of all the problems minority kids face today, this is what you guys cry about.

The disdain for white folks in this thread, who lose college seats to those less qualified, is amazing. I wonder if the bigota going on about "white trash" are black?

And being kept out of med school, a lifelong dream, so that a lesser scoring minority gets in instead of you is a big deal.

Why is med school your lifelong dream? Do you hope to help heal the sick, and reduce the suffering in the world? There are many other professions where you can do this, and not worry about the limited number of spots. You could be a nurse, or a physician's assistant. Or go into medical research, and maybe get a PhD, help find cures for some of these diseases.

Or is med school your lifelong dream because you want to make a lot of money?

1) If making a lot of money was my dream, I'd be an overpaid lawyer - like many on DCUM. Med school is much tougher than law school.

2) I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about a white person who has dreamed of med school his entire life, earned nearly all As, and found himself displaced by a black kid with a B average because.....he's black.

3) And why should the more academically accomplished white student have to dial back his dream, and instead become a PA or nurse, so a black stident with lower grades can get HIS dream of med school? Why aren't you asking why the lower-scoring black student adjust HIS goals and become a PA? Why should the white kid make the sacrifice when he is the better student?

In your fantasy world. You all make sh1t up 24x7.

Don't tell me that you are unaware that white kids with 3.8 GPA are rejected from the very same institutions that accept black kids with a 3.2. Apaprently, you don't like the truth, so you claim it's made-up sh!t.

You leftists demand the continuation of AA policies that involve significantly lower admission stamdards for black kids, and then want to deny that black kids are getting in as a result of racial preferences. You can't have it both ways.

My point was that you made up that particular scenario. It's fiction. That is not something that actually happened to someone you know. It's all in your head.

First, let's talk about the earlier example that you made up.

1) Med school admissions is crazy competitive. "Nearly all As" isn't quite good enough for some schools. It was far more likely that he was NOT displaced by anyone. He just didn't make the cut.
2) Let's say you do actually know a kid who applied for med school -- how far into the process did he get? How many interviews did he get?
3) How do you know the GPA for the URM kids who were accepted into those schools? Why do you think they have a "B average"?
4) Why do you think it was a black person vs. another URM?

And then let's talk about this new scenario that you just made up.
5) Now you are comparing a 3.8 vs. 3.2. Why are you changing the details now?

BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FACTS. You are just making up scenarios to support your argument.

Stop the BS and come back with facts if you are trying to make up a point.

OMG. You really are in denial.

The example I used is right from the AAMC website (which another poster linked to) that clearly shows how many whites with 3.8 are accepted/rejected compared to blacks with that average. News flash: plenty of whites get rejected at the level, and virtually all blacks get in. Now look at the 3.2, where if you're a white, you won't get into med school. A black with that GPA - quite common to get in.

Stop,demanding that preferential treatment be given to blacks, and then pitch a fit when someone points out how that means blacks with much lower grades than whites get admitted. A the difference is substantial.

I never denied the criteria for majority kids is different than URMs.

I just called you out on a fake sob story THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

Once again, you are FOS.

And the tolerant liberal accuses me of being FOS because you don't like the facts! The FACTS show that whites with 3.8 get rejected and blacks with 3.2 get accepted. What you call a "sob story" (absolutely no sympathy for a white kid, huh?) is backed up by extensive data from the AAMC that reveals it happens over and over and over and over.....

And you didn't answer the question: why do you think black people should only have to compete with black people, on a much lower admission standard, and white people compete with white people, on a much higher admission standard? IT IS DISCRIMINATING AGAINST WHITES.

And again, we are not talking about small differences. A black kid with a B average has a decent chance of getting into medical school, and NO white kid will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:White people complaining about black kids taking their kid's spot in college Wow. Let. It. GO. Life is not fair for anyone. Stop crying. Billy will get into med school. According to most of you, the black kids will fail out by the second semester, Billy will just have to sit out a semester or go to community college for a little while.

NO...Billy will NOT get into med school. Despite his better grades and better scores, he has to become a P.A, and the black kid with the B average gets in, and, with lots of tutoring, manages to finish med school and becomes a doctor.

And if we are talking about college, why should Billy have to go to community college so a black kid with a so-so record goes to university? Why not let the kid with the so-so record go to community college? There is absolutely no justification for the black son of an accountant with a mediocre record to get "jumped" over the poor white kid with better grades.

Remember,...this thread started as advocating for AA based on income. We should not be giving an advantage to middle-class black kids over poor whites kids WHO HAVE BETTER GRADES. It's ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

1) I’m not tolerant of bigots
2) A 3.2 is not a B
3) It’s a small % (8%) - not “over and over and over”
4) You don’t know anyone who applied to medical school and didn’t get into any school because they were “displaced by black kids”
5) AA helps to level the playing field to offset centuries of slavery and systematic racism that exists today. AA alone isn’t enough. We need more comprehensive programs to live people out of poverty. I’d include low SES white people in that as well.
6) White people can deal with a little discrimination - it’s the least we can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White people complaining about black kids taking their kid's spot in college Wow. Let. It. GO. Life is not fair for anyone. Stop crying. Billy will get into med school. According to most of you, the black kids will fail out by the second semester, Billy will just have to sit out a semester or go to community college for a little while.

NO...Billy will NOT get into med school. Despite his better grades and better scores, he has to become a P.A, and the black kid with the B average gets in, and, with lots of tutoring, manages to finish med school and becomes a doctor.

And if we are talking about college, why should Billy have to go to community college so a black kid with a so-so record goes to university? Why not let the kid with the so-so record go to community college? There is absolutely no justification for the black son of an accountant with a mediocre record to get "jumped" over the poor white kid with better grades.

Remember,...this thread started as advocating for AA based on income. We should not be giving an advantage to middle-class black kids over poor whites kids WHO HAVE BETTER GRADES. It's ridiculous.

Billy is entitled to sh1t. If he was on the cusp of acceptance - say bottom 8% - he can find another path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) I’m not tolerant of bigots
2) A 3.2 is not a B
3) It’s a small % (8%) - not “over and over and over”
4) You don’t know anyone who applied to medical school and didn’t get into any school because they were “displaced by black kids”
5) AA helps to level the playing field to offset centuries of slavery and systematic racism that exists today. AA alone isn’t enough. We need more comprehensive programs to live people out of poverty. I’d include low SES white people in that as well.
6) White people can deal with a little discrimination - it’s the least we can do.

I don't need to know anyone personally, because the data proves it happens over and over and over and over and over....data trumps personal anecdotes.

And you're calling me a bigot because I think it's unfair for a poor white kid with a 3.8 to lose his spot to a black kid with a 3.2? (you're such a liberal....calling people bigots because they don't agree with unfair liberal policies.) If anything, your remark that whites should be discriminated against shows that YOU are the bigot, against whites. Why you were the bigot who said the white kids can just go to community college? You'd be calling racist if someone said that black kids can just go to community college!

Race should play no role in admissions - just SES. Any black kids suffering from the results of slavery and systemic racism would still get preferential treatment due to low SES. But, and where's where you can't tolerate it due to your bigoted WGAF attitude towards whites, A POOR WHITE KID WITH GOOD GRADES GETS PREFERENCE, TOO.

[Anonymous]

Lol......hard to feel proud of your dumb child getting into colleges with an absurd handicap. At some point they will fail when they have to compete on their own merits..dummies.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:White people complaining about black kids taking their kid's spot in college Wow. Let. It. GO. Life is not fair for anyone. Stop crying. Billy will get into med school. According to most of you, the black kids will fail out by the second semester, Billy will just have to sit out a semester or go to community college for a little while.

NO...Billy will NOT get into med school. Despite his better grades and better scores, he has to become a P.A, and the black kid with the B average gets in, and, with lots of tutoring, manages to finish med school and becomes a doctor.

And if we are talking about college, why should Billy have to go to community college so a black kid with a so-so record goes to university? Why not let the kid with the so-so record go to community college? There is absolutely no justification for the black son of an accountant with a mediocre record to get "jumped" over the poor white kid with better grades.

Remember,...this thread started as advocating for AA based on income. We should not be giving an advantage to middle-class black kids over poor whites kids WHO HAVE BETTER GRADES. It's ridiculous.

Billy is entitled to sh1t. If he was on the cusp of acceptance - say bottom 8% - he can find another path.

Damn, but you sure don't give a sh!t about whites, do you! Why is the black kid with THE WORSE GRADES entitled to go to med school when his grades are so much lower than whites? Why can't fhe black kid find another path?

And are you black or white? I'm curious given your entitlement attitude where blacks are concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White people complaining about black kids taking their kid's spot in college Wow. Let. It. GO. Life is not fair for anyone. Stop crying. Billy will get into med school. According to most of you, the black kids will fail out by the second semester, Billy will just have to sit out a semester or go to community college for a little while.

NO...Billy will NOT get into med school. Despite his better grades and better scores, he has to become a P.A, and the black kid with the B average gets in, and, with lots of tutoring, manages to finish med school and becomes a doctor.

And if we are talking about college, why should Billy have to go to community college so a black kid with a so-so record goes to university? Why not let the kid with the so-so record go to community college? There is absolutely no justification for the black son of an accountant with a mediocre record to get "jumped" over the poor white kid with better grades.

Remember,...this thread started as advocating for AA based on income. We should not be giving an advantage to middle-class black kids over poor whites kids WHO HAVE BETTER GRADES. It's ridiculous.

Billy is entitled to sh1t. If he was on the cusp of acceptance - say bottom 8% - he can find another path.

Damn, but you sure don't give a sh!t about whites, do you! Why is the black kid with THE WORSE GRADES entitled to go to med school when his grades are so much lower than whites? Why can't fhe black kid find another path?

And are you black or white? I'm curious given your entitlement attitude where blacks are concerned.

[Anonymous]

I really wish liberals would stop this disgraceful havit of calling everyone a racist or bigot. There is absolutely nothing bigoted about pointing out that white applicants with a 3.8 GPA get rejected from institutions that accept black applicants with a 3.2 GPA (as published data clearly shows) and to discuss the inequity in this situation. It is clearly racist to discriminate based in skin color, which is what these institutions are doing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All you posters who are insisting that minorities admitted to competitive schools with lower grades and scores than white and Asian students do just as well, be realistic. In what universe would you put a crop of B- stidents in with straight A students, and not expect the former group to struggle to keep up with the latter group?

I've worked in the industry. I can tell you that that a high percentage of the minorities admitted under the lesser AA standards require a lot of tutoring to stay in the program. (Competitive universities invest a lot in keeping the AA students in their programs since they want to keep the drop-out rate low.) By comparison, the minorities who would have gained admission under the standard guidelines, which constitute about a third of minorities. do not need extra tutoring to keep from failing. As one would expect. After all, they were "equal" in terms of grades and test scores as the non-minority students.

Stanford had to create a couple of “physics for dummies” type courses to boost retention of URM students. Is that really the way AA is supposed to work? Pretty pathetic.

Yes, and I've heard black graduates complain that people wonder if they got in - and through - on their own, or whether lesser standards applied. Well. You can't have it both ways. If you lower standards to admit minorities who otherwise would have been rejected, every minority will then be suspected of getting in because of lesser standards.

The people who suffer, beyond the whites who are outright rejected, are the minorities who would have gotten in on their own. If a school has an entering class of 2000 students, 10% of whom are black (200), approximately 70 of them qualified under the "white standard." Approximately 130 would have had to go to a lesser school, if equal standards were applied.

The other ones who suffer are the many excellent Asian Americans who are rejected because according to the racial/ PC police they are "overrepresented."

Get off the cross we need the wood. Apply to a different school. Move on. Be smart and take a full scholarship instead of taking high yielding money out of a lucrative market. Harvard is ONE school.

DP. So why can't the minorities admitted to Harvard under lower standards apply to a different school? Why do the Asians have to go to the lesser school when their grades and scores were higher?

Because their spots were taken by legacies and athletes?

No, their spots were taken by black students with much lower grades and test scores.

scores

Much lower than the athletes? Really?

DP. Yes, blacks get the largest handicaps followed by latinos, athletes and legacies. The data are all there if you care to look.

It's true about the stats. The organization that produces the med school admission test has some very telling data on its website. The average grades and test scores for blacks admitted to med school are significantly lower for blacks than whites. There is no way in he!! that a kid with a 3.2 average in college is getting into med school - unless he's black.

My friend's son had a high test score and a 3.7 average - but it wasn't good enough to get into med school....any med school. (And he didn't have it easy: His father died when he was 12 and his mother raised him on a single income.) In the meantime, black kids with not much more than a B average and substantially lower scores get accepted.

Here is the med school Billy.

[Anonymous]

Choosing between a 3.6 and 3.9 GPA has nothing to do with the likelihood of making it through medical school, or becoming a good doctor. You might as well choose between those with heights below or above 5 foot 8 inches. Having a 3.9 rather than a 3.6 GPA does *not* mean you are better qualified for medical school. There is no reason why those with a higher GPA "deserve" (above a minimum) to get into medical school.