Affirmative Action should be income-based, not race-based

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whites should abandon affirmative-action schools and set up new schools based on merit only.

LOL, you think it's blacks and minorities that are running these Affirmative Action programs? Google "college admissions board team photo" as an image search.

Affirmative action programs are run by white social justice warriors overcome by guilt and shame of their own skin color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not necessarily against AA but I can’t abide the dishonesty of those claiming that black admits don’t have substantially lower quantitative metrics than other races. Granting black admits handicaps is at the very heart of AA.

Here are 18 years of Harvard data tracking test scores of admits by race. Blacks scored the lowest of the five racial groups.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

This is a good link. Thanks for posting.

But it proves the point that I was personally making. Black students had average SAT section score of 704. Average white student had score of 745. These correspond to percentiles 92-96% and 95-99%, respectively. Yes, the black students were lower. But these scores are all exceptional. This is not a so-so black kid with a 3.3 GPA and a white kid with a 3.8 GPA that other posters keep using as a made up example. This is a black kid and a white kid, both with 4.0 GPAs in AP classes and both with really strong SAT scores, with the white person being slightly higher. This is exactly the point I have been making all along (but I can't speak for other posters).

https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-percentiles-and-score-rankings

There is definitely room to debate if 2-3% percentile points are significant. But consider the full implications of asking for a race-blind admissions.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

Harvard had 43,330 applicants this year and admitted 2000. Harvard, if it so chose, could entirely populate its freshman class with wildly "superior" Asian students. I'm guessing you wouldn't like that. But on what grounds? FYI, huge percentage of white acceptances are due to social reasons, not merit.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361

'I'm the poster talking about the HUGE discrepancy between blacks and whites when it comes to med school acceptance. I gave the example of how relatively easy it is for a black kid to get into med school with a 3.3 whereas a white kid needs a 3.8 or 3.9 to have a decent chance. We are not talking about a 2-3% percentile difference.....we are talking about how the metrics for accepted black students is SIGNIFICANTLY lower.

As i was saying .(and I found the AAMC data to back it up), you can look at any score/grade combination, and for that specific metric, blacks can be as much as NINE (9!) times as likely to get accepted as whites.Also, as I mentioned, the AAMC stopped reporting the data, and I suspect the reason they did is that they didn't want whites to know just how far backward med schools were bending over to get their desired percentage of black kids into their programs - and rejecting whites who are significantly better students.

Finally, we have people on this thread arguing FOR race-based admissions preferences (with the preference going to blacks) and then simultaneously arguing that there is barely a difference in the metrics of accepted black studenrs vs white students - and name-calling anyone who points out the truth. (I think someone actually called a poster a slut!)

You can't find the data in the AAMC website any longer - the backlash must have been fierce - but this article has the data from a few years ago, as published by the AAMC. For those of you who are willing to take off the blinders and explore to what degree "slightly-above average" black students usurp exceptional white students as a result of lower "black standards," the attached article will be of interest. (Also, it's not just blacks that get the big advantage; Hispanics do as well.)

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools/

I'm not signing up for that website.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/01/15/analysis-challenges-idea-black-medical-school-applicants-are-stealing

From the article:

The number of black students earning admission is so small, the analysis says, that eliminating affirmative action would have only the most marginal impact on the odds of white applicants getting in. Based on their qualifications during the years studied, if medical schools stopped considering race in admissions, and every slot lost by a black student went to a white student (which is unlikely), the acceptance rate of white applicants would go up from 45.15 percent to 47.97 percent.

Maybe medical schools feel a public health responsibility to teach more black doctors since the outcomes for black patients are an order of magnitude worse than white patients? Creating more black doctors who might be more sensitive to these concerns might help ameliorate that problem.

So I posted an article that has the actual data chart from the AAMC showing the wide discrepancy between the scores of accepted blacks and whites, and you don't want to look at it? Instead, you went with a different angle, from a liberal educational group, that comes up with its own study somehow. What about the actual data from the horse's mouth - you know, from the AAMC that administers the MCAT and tracks the admittance rates?

A SLIGHT advantage to blacks, OK.....but black getting in at 9x the rate as whites when the scores/grades are the same?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whites should abandon affirmative-action schools and set up new schools based on merit only.

LOL, you think it's blacks and minorities that are running these Affirmative Action programs? Google "college admissions board team photo" as an image search.

Affirmative action programs are run by white social justice warriors overcome by guilt and shame of their own skin color.

True. It's all the liberal whites running the program. They'd be fine with it until their own white kid gets bumped in favor of a black kid with much lower grades and test scores. Then you'll hear screaming. (The hypocrisy is amazing. Did you see how all the leftists on this site were up in arms over a DC-based facility into which illegal alien kids would be placed? They were looking for ways to block it. NIMBYs, every last one of them.)

[Anonymous]

The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

I don't think that is true. This is anecdotal, but it is my first hand experience:

I taught in an extremely poor Title I school in the very early days of Title I. While I had mostly AA kids in the class, the white kids also struggled. Most of the kids came from backgrounds that were not only poor, but rough. Black and white. There were a handful of kids that succeeded, but the starting point when they came to school was extremely low. Few kids had books in the home. One reason I am so against busing is that the AA kids were bused in. It was extremely difficult to get parental support when the school is not in the community.

Later, I taught in a school that was a microcosm of American society-a DoD school overseas. I doubt there were any wealthy kids there-unless a parent came from money--but it was a good mixture of races of all kinds. A small group of kids were ESOL. There was NO difference in the success of the kids by race. There was a general gap according to educational background of the parents, but it was not raced based. Some years, my brightest students were white and some years they were AA. The same goes for those who struggled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whites should abandon affirmative-action schools and set up new schools based on merit only.

LOL, you think it's blacks and minorities that are running these Affirmative Action programs? Google "college admissions board team photo" as an image search.

Affirmative action programs are run by white social justice warriors overcome by guilt and shame of their own skin color.

True. It's all the liberal whites running the program. They'd be fine with it until their own white kid gets bumped in favor of a black kid with much lower grades and test scores. Then you'll hear screaming. (The hypocrisy is amazing. Did you see how all the leftists on this site were up in arms over a DC-based facility into which illegal alien kids would be placed? They were looking for ways to block it. NIMBYs, every last one of them.)

True words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not necessarily against AA but I can’t abide the dishonesty of those claiming that black admits don’t have substantially lower quantitative metrics than other races. Granting black admits handicaps is at the very heart of AA.

Here are 18 years of Harvard data tracking test scores of admits by race. Blacks scored the lowest of the five racial groups.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

This is a good link. Thanks for posting.

But it proves the point that I was personally making. Black students had average SAT section score of 704. Average white student had score of 745. These correspond to percentiles 92-96% and 95-99%, respectively. Yes, the black students were lower. But these scores are all exceptional. This is not a so-so black kid with a 3.3 GPA and a white kid with a 3.8 GPA that other posters keep using as a made up example. This is a black kid and a white kid, both with 4.0 GPAs in AP classes and both with really strong SAT scores, with the white person being slightly higher. This is exactly the point I have been making all along (but I can't speak for other posters).

https://blog.prepscholar.com/sat-percentiles-and-score-rankings

There is definitely room to debate if 2-3% percentile points are significant. But consider the full implications of asking for a race-blind admissions.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

Harvard had 43,330 applicants this year and admitted 2000. Harvard, if it so chose, could entirely populate its freshman class with wildly "superior" Asian students. I'm guessing you wouldn't like that. But on what grounds? FYI, huge percentage of white acceptances are due to social reasons, not merit.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361

'I'm the poster talking about the HUGE discrepancy between blacks and whites when it comes to med school acceptance. I gave the example of how relatively easy it is for a black kid to get into med school with a 3.3 whereas a white kid needs a 3.8 or 3.9 to have a decent chance. We are not talking about a 2-3% percentile difference.....we are talking about how the metrics for accepted black students is SIGNIFICANTLY lower.

As i was saying .(and I found the AAMC data to back it up), you can look at any score/grade combination, and for that specific metric, blacks can be as much as NINE (9!) times as likely to get accepted as whites.Also, as I mentioned, the AAMC stopped reporting the data, and I suspect the reason they did is that they didn't want whites to know just how far backward med schools were bending over to get their desired percentage of black kids into their programs - and rejecting whites who are significantly better students.

Finally, we have people on this thread arguing FOR race-based admissions preferences (with the preference going to blacks) and then simultaneously arguing that there is barely a difference in the metrics of accepted black studenrs vs white students - and name-calling anyone who points out the truth. (I think someone actually called a poster a slut!)

You can't find the data in the AAMC website any longer - the backlash must have been fierce - but this article has the data from a few years ago, as published by the AAMC. For those of you who are willing to take off the blinders and explore to what degree "slightly-above average" black students usurp exceptional white students as a result of lower "black standards," the attached article will be of interest. (Also, it's not just blacks that get the big advantage; Hispanics do as well.)

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-chart-illustrates-graphically-racial-preferences-for-blacks-and-hispanics-being-admitted-to-us-medical-schools/

I'm not signing up for that website.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/01/15/analysis-challenges-idea-black-medical-school-applicants-are-stealing

From the article:

The number of black students earning admission is so small, the analysis says, that eliminating affirmative action would have only the most marginal impact on the odds of white applicants getting in. Based on their qualifications during the years studied, if medical schools stopped considering race in admissions, and every slot lost by a black student went to a white student (which is unlikely), the acceptance rate of white applicants would go up from 45.15 percent to 47.97 percent.

Maybe medical schools feel a public health responsibility to teach more black doctors since the outcomes for black patients are an order of magnitude worse than white patients? Creating more black doctors who might be more sensitive to these concerns might help ameliorate that problem.

So I posted an article that has the actual data chart from the AAMC showing the wide discrepancy between the scores of accepted blacks and whites, and you don't want to look at it? Instead, you went with a different angle, from a liberal educational group, that comes up with its own study somehow. What about the actual data from the horse's mouth - you know, from the AAMC that administers the MCAT and tracks the admittance rates?

A SLIGHT advantage to blacks, OK.....but black getting in at 9x the rate as whites when the scores/grades are the same?

+1.

Some posters are pros at ignoring what they don't want to see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

I don't think that is true. This is anecdotal, but it is my first hand experience:

I taught in an extremely poor Title I school in the very early days of Title I. While I had mostly AA kids in the class, the white kids also struggled. Most of the kids came from backgrounds that were not only poor, but rough. Black and white. There were a handful of kids that succeeded, but the starting point when they came to school was extremely low. Few kids had books in the home. One reason I am so against busing is that the AA kids were bused in. It was extremely difficult to get parental support when the school is not in the community.

Later, I taught in a school that was a microcosm of American society-a DoD school overseas. I doubt there were any wealthy kids there-unless a parent came from money--but it was a good mixture of races of all kinds. A small group of kids were ESOL. There was NO difference in the success of the kids by race. There was a general gap according to educational background of the parents, but it was not raced based. Some years, my brightest students were white and some years they were AA. The same goes for those who struggled.

Why do these idiotic people think their personal anecdotes are a substitute for actual data?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

This article says data is limited. Another source that actually supports your claim?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

This article says data is limited. Another source that actually supports your claim?

Are you unfamiliar with google? There are literally thousands of articles on the subject. And it’s not a claim, it’s a fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

This article says data is limited. Another source that actually supports your claim?

Are you unfamiliar with google? There are literally thousands of articles on the subject. And it’s not a claim, it’s a fact.

Then it should be easy for you to substantiate your claim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

This article says data is limited. Another source that actually supports your claim?

Are you unfamiliar with google? There are literally thousands of articles on the subject. And it’s not a claim, it’s a fact.

Then it should be easy for you to substantiate your claim.

Lol.....it’s not my job to educate those that are too stupid and/or lazy to do a simple search on the web.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The performance gap between white and black students on standardized tests exists whether low income or high income....why is that? Researchers who have studied the issue can’t point to an answer.

link?

what is your theory?

Eh....it’s either a cultural issue (e.g. no emphasis on the importance of education in the household) or innate intelligence.....either way it’s a big challenge.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/amp/

This article says data is limited. Another source that actually supports your claim?

Are you unfamiliar with google? There are literally thousands of articles on the subject. And it’s not a claim, it’s a fact.

Then it should be easy for you to substantiate your claim.

Dp here, his stuff has been known for years. Search for "journal of blacks in education SAT income".

You will see that sat scores for upper income AA are about the same as whites in the lower income scale. Intelligence distributions aren't uniform among racial groups, but there is a correlation to IQ and income up to around 130-140, once you go to the extremes it changes.