Be careful biking with your family

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t bike on the street because I think it is dangerous but I am a frequent pedestrian.

I see this a lot when I am walking. You have to be a smart biker and pedestrian and not assume the cars see you and will stop. You have to confirm that they see you and are stopping before you go. Maybe the driver of the car is technically in the wrong for not stopping at a crosswalk but it’s better for you not to be injured!!

When walking - even when I have the right of way with a walk sign, I often see cars want to turn right on red. They look at the cars coming to their left but you need to confirm that they also see you crossing to their right before crossing.

Same if you’re walking / running on a street and you want to go across a street to the other side. Make sure if a car could turn left or right onto that street that they see you’re crossing and that you don’t both end up in the intersection at the same time.

Those are the two i see most frequently. I will think if I can think of any others.

I bike on a trail but have to cross the street several times. This has happened to me so many times it is scary. People wanting to turn right on red blow through the crosswalk without stopping.

A baby got killed this way. Man was crossing street carrying the baby and the car trying to turn right didn’t look to their right, baby flew out of dad’s hands and died. Terrible story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
“Yes, it's typically not easy to drive in walkable areas. If it were easy to drive, the area wouldn't be walkable. Though I agree that there are still plenty of things that could be done to make downtown Bethesda more walkable.”

This is not true. European cities are almost entirely made up of places that are both walkable and drivable. In many cities, bikes are also an important part of the mix.

While I haven't driven in European cities, it seems to me that they are less drivable - if only because drivers have to stop for pedestrians a lot more there than they do here. Drivers and pedestrians can only share the roads when drivers drive slowly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

For a child across that intersection, absolutely dismount. That's why I said walk your bike. Biking VERY slowly is ok too, but it's actually hard to bike very slowly. If you're crossing an intersection without a lot of traffic and you have a clear view all ways, biking at pedestrian speed or a little faster is OK. But a high-speed arterial like that when you apparently don't have a clear view of all the traffic? Walk your bike, grownup or adult.

I often bike on trails. Sometimes I am behind a walker, and the bike traffic in the opposite direction makes it impossible to do a safe pass (I will NOT pass close to a walker, I want to give them room, ideally at least 3 feet). So I ride slowly. I am an adult, riding a hybrid bike, and I CAN maintain a pace of about 3MPH without falling.

Note, the kid in this video was hardly even using his pedals, he was basically "flintsoning" across (I pushing the pavement with his feet) I cannot believe he is going over 3 or 4MPH an hour. If that is not safe, than walking across at quick walking pace is not safe. Does MoCo really think that is an acceptable standard for use of a crosswalk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

The car on the left, which took the video WAS stopped. Evidently they were able to see the family crossing. Even if the SUV that almost hit the kid could not see them, they should have seen the stopped car on the left, and that should have been a warning to slow down. And it looks to me like they sped through and did not even try to slow down - they may have been speeding to begin with, which would make stopping in time more difficult.

To make crossing safer, we may need lower and better enforced speed limits.

It certainly does not appear to me that the family did anything wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

When you're driving at 35 mph or faster, it may seem like the pedestrians or bicyclists are launching themselves into the intersection. But they're not. You just don't notice them until they're right there, because the speed you're driving at narrows your field of peripheral vision.

Which is another reason why driving speeds have to be lower in areas with pedestrians or bicyclists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The car on the left, which took the video WAS stopped. Evidently they were able to see the family crossing. Even if the SUV that almost hit the kid could not see them, they should have seen the stopped car on the left, and that should have been a warning to slow down. And it looks to me like they sped through and did not even try to slow down - they may have been speeding to begin with, which would make stopping in time more difficult.

To make crossing safer, we may need lower and better enforced speed limits.

It certainly does not appear to me that the family did anything wrong.

It should have been a warning to STOP. That's what the law requires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

When you're driving at 35 mph or faster, it may seem like the pedestrians or bicyclists are launching themselves into the intersection. But they're not. You just don't notice them until they're right there, because the speed you're driving at narrows your field of peripheral vision.

Which is another reason why driving speeds have to be lower in areas with pedestrians or bicyclists.

Plus, as previously established, even though most don’t know it, the SUV was not legally allowed to pass the car on the left because you cannot overtake a car stopped at a crosswalk in VA. They could be issued several tickets if a police officer saw it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I often bike on trails. Sometimes I am behind a walker, and the bike traffic in the opposite direction makes it impossible to do a safe pass (I will NOT pass close to a walker, I want to give them room, ideally at least 3 feet). So I ride slowly. I am an adult, riding a hybrid bike, and I CAN maintain a pace of about 3MPH without falling.

Note, the kid in this video was hardly even using his pedals, he was basically "flintsoning" across (I pushing the pavement with his feet) I cannot believe he is going over 3 or 4MPH an hour. If that is not safe, than walking across at quick walking pace is not safe. Does MoCo really think that is an acceptable standard for use of a crosswalk?

It's a state road. So the question should be: Does the State of Maryland really think that this is an acceptable standard for use of a crosswalk?

This is apparently what they think:

"We engineer work zone areas to be safe for pedestrians, travelers and workers given limited space and construction activities. Our traffic engineers are reviewing the temporary crosswalk on Piney Branch Road at Sligo Creek to assure it is as safe as possible for everyone. MDOT SHA is meeting with the contractor tomorrow to see if we can accelerate the opening of the permanent crosswalk or consider any adjustments in the interim."

https://wjla.com/features/7-on-your-side/dangerous-crosswalk-maryland-state-highway-administration

In my opinion, it's pretty clear whom they're engineering the thing for, given that they distinguish between "pedestrians" (aka people on foot) and "travelers" (aka people in cars). Hint: they're not engineering it for people on foot or people on bicycles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

The car on the left, which took the video WAS stopped. Evidently they were able to see the family crossing. Even if the SUV that almost hit the kid could not see them, they should have seen the stopped car on the left, and that should have been a warning to slow down. And it looks to me like they sped through and did not even try to slow down - they may have been speeding to begin with, which would make stopping in time more difficult.

To make crossing safer, we may need lower and better enforced speed limits.

It certainly does not appear to me that the family did anything wrong.

The car on the left had their turn signal on because they were turning right after the crosswalk. The SUV probably thought the car was stopped to wait to turn and didn’t see the kid in the crosswalk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Road biking is so, so dangerous. I wish our roads were more bike-friendly, but they're just not.

They were biking on a bike trail. They were simply crossing a street, at pedestrian speed. They waited for traffic to stop and then entered crosswalk. They should have been pretty visible with bike and colored gear. Assume black suv was on phone.

The dad was in head to toe black.
Not very responsible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Road biking is so, so dangerous. I wish our roads were more bike-friendly, but they're just not.

They were biking on a bike trail. They were simply crossing a street, at pedestrian speed. They waited for traffic to stop and then entered crosswalk. They should have been pretty visible with bike and colored gear. Assume black suv was on phone.

The dad was in head to toe black.
Not very responsible.

The only responsible one was the little girl, who stopped right away, and then quickly proceeded out of the intersection. The MOM dismounted after that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

The car on the left, which took the video WAS stopped. Evidently they were able to see the family crossing. Even if the SUV that almost hit the kid could not see them, they should have seen the stopped car on the left, and that should have been a warning to slow down. And it looks to me like they sped through and did not even try to slow down - they may have been speeding to begin with, which would make stopping in time more difficult.

To make crossing safer, we may need lower and better enforced speed limits.

It certainly does not appear to me that the family did anything wrong.

The car on the left had their turn signal on because they were turning right after the crosswalk. The SUV probably thought the car was stopped to wait to turn and didn’t see the kid in the crosswalk.

The video shows them proceeding straight after the crosswalk. And being in the left lane. And I don't see any cross street there to turn onto. It seems pretty clear to me they were stopped for the folks in the crosswalk. The SUV just decided to speed on obliviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.

The car on the left, which took the video WAS stopped. Evidently they were able to see the family crossing. Even if the SUV that almost hit the kid could not see them, they should have seen the stopped car on the left, and that should have been a warning to slow down. And it looks to me like they sped through and did not even try to slow down - they may have been speeding to begin with, which would make stopping in time more difficult.

To make crossing safer, we may need lower and better enforced speed limits.

It certainly does not appear to me that the family did anything wrong.

The car on the left had their turn signal on because they were turning right after the crosswalk. The SUV probably thought the car was stopped to wait to turn and didn’t see the kid in the crosswalk.

The video shows them proceeding straight after the crosswalk. And being in the left lane. And I don't see any cross street there to turn onto. It seems pretty clear to me they were stopped for the folks in the crosswalk. The SUV just decided to speed on obliviously.

Maybe. But having a poorly signed temporary crosswalk just in front of the actual intersection is a recipe for drivers not to focus it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The dad was in head to toe black.
Not very responsible.

The dad was pulling a bike trailer with a bright pink awning. In daylight. His clothing could not have been an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

A comment on Greater Greater Washington provides one explanation for that PP's insistence that everybody advises to walk your bike across the crosswalk (despite not having yet produced even a single example of somebody providing this advice): namely, the old thinking was

1. Crosswalks are for people who are walking.
2. People on bikes are not walking and therefore do not belong in the crosswalk.
3. Therefore, if you are in a crosswalk with a bicycle, you should be walking it.

But that's not a safety reason, it's a legal reason. Furthermore, it's a legal reason that people are explicitly trying to change. See this bill, for example: http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?pid=billpage&stab=01&id=sb0337&tab=subject3&ys=2017RS