Be careful biking with your family

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^ I suggested the same, from the school of common sense, when another pp lamented that she just didn’t know what more the mom could have done here. Yes, the driver was 100% wrong but the mother could have avoided the near miss entirely. Personally, I’m gonna rely on myself in this situation — not on the hope that the driver will do the right thing.

I agree with you 100%. It does you no good to have been legally in the right if you or your kid get mowed down by a car.

This

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry for saying this but all these cross-walks seemingly any and everywhere are dangerous as hell. Not to mention every municipality makes up their own specific rules and it's just a recipe for accidents. Making matters even worse are pedestrians and bikers get so cocky and jump into the road and aren't defensive at all. *forehead smack*

I agree! Maybe this needs its own thread. All over Montrose and downtown Bethesda are these pedestrian cross walks. They’re a great idea, but one person ambles across, cars stop, as the cars begin moving another person starts ambling across, cars get frustrated. It’s a mess. It’s a great idea in theory - Look! We’re so pedestrian friendly! - but it’s just a bad mix of cars and pedestrians. And BTW, I think the SUV was speeding and is at fault in this particular thread.

In general, there needs to be a cultural adjustment to the idea that roads are for everyone.

Also, if it's frustrating for you, when you drive in downtown Bethesda, to stop for pedestrians as legally required -- would walking be a possibility for you, instead? It can be much more convenient than driving.

PP here. Yes, when I lived in Bethesda, I walked everywhere. I actually prefer to walk, but I no longer live in Bethesda, and have stopped going because I think the driving and parking is a cluster. Bethesda wants to be walkable but there are too many cars and pedestrians and few lights. I have seen so many near misses of both cars and pedestrians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry for saying this but all these cross-walks seemingly any and everywhere are dangerous as hell. Not to mention every municipality makes up their own specific rules and it's just a recipe for accidents. Making matters even worse are pedestrians and bikers get so cocky and jump into the road and aren't defensive at all. *forehead smack*

I agree! Maybe this needs its own thread. All over Montrose and downtown Bethesda are these pedestrian cross walks. They’re a great idea, but one person ambles across, cars stop, as the cars begin moving another person starts ambling across, cars get frustrated. It’s a mess. It’s a great idea in theory - Look! We’re so pedestrian friendly! - but it’s just a bad mix of cars and pedestrians. And BTW, I think the SUV was speeding and is at fault in this particular thread.

European here. Agree! Americans are stupid with urban planning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry for saying this but all these cross-walks seemingly any and everywhere are dangerous as hell. Not to mention every municipality makes up their own specific rules and it's just a recipe for accidents. Making matters even worse are pedestrians and bikers get so cocky and jump into the road and aren't defensive at all. *forehead smack*

I agree! Maybe this needs its own thread. All over Montrose and downtown Bethesda are these pedestrian cross walks. They’re a great idea, but one person ambles across, cars stop, as the cars begin moving another person starts ambling across, cars get frustrated. It’s a mess. It’s a great idea in theory - Look! We’re so pedestrian friendly! - but it’s just a bad mix of cars and pedestrians. And BTW, I think the SUV was speeding and is at fault in this particular thread.

In general, there needs to be a cultural adjustment to the idea that roads are for everyone.

Also, if it's frustrating for you, when you drive in downtown Bethesda, to stop for pedestrians as legally required -- would walking be a possibility for you, instead? It can be much more convenient than driving.

PP here. Yes, when I lived in Bethesda, I walked everywhere. I actually prefer to walk, but I no longer live in Bethesda, and have stopped going because I think the driving and parking is a cluster. Bethesda wants to be walkable but there are too many cars and pedestrians and few lights. I have seen so many near misses of both cars and pedestrians.

Yes, it's typically not easy to drive in walkable areas. If it were easy to drive, the area wouldn't be walkable. Though I agree that there are still plenty of things that could be done to make downtown Bethesda more walkable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

[Anonymous]

I have this feeling that the driver of the SUV is one of the people blaming the parents here!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have this feeling that the driver of the SUV is one of the people blaming the parents here!

No way. That SUV driver knows s/he should have stopped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

[Anonymous]

“Yes, it's typically not easy to drive in walkable areas. If it were easy to drive, the area wouldn't be walkable. Though I agree that there are still plenty of things that could be done to make downtown Bethesda more walkable.”

This is not true. European cities are almost entirely made up of places that are both walkable and drivable. In many cities, bikes are also an important part of the mix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry for saying this but all these cross-walks seemingly any and everywhere are dangerous as hell. Not to mention every municipality makes up their own specific rules and it's just a recipe for accidents. Making matters even worse are pedestrians and bikers get so cocky and jump into the road and aren't defensive at all. *forehead smack*

I agree! Maybe this needs its own thread. All over Montrose and downtown Bethesda are these pedestrian cross walks. They’re a great idea, but one person ambles across, cars stop, as the cars begin moving another person starts ambling across, cars get frustrated. It’s a mess. It’s a great idea in theory - Look! We’re so pedestrian friendly! - but it’s just a bad mix of cars and pedestrians. And BTW, I think the SUV was speeding and is at fault in this particular thread.

European here. Agree! Americans are stupid with urban planning.

It may be that in Euro cities where cars too are used in a manner that is predictable, safe and lawful, and where pedestrians really are accommodate, pedestrians are more inclined to follow the law. Here, where everything is much more anarchic, people are likely to cross when they can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm sorry for saying this but all these cross-walks seemingly any and everywhere are dangerous as hell. Not to mention every municipality makes up their own specific rules and it's just a recipe for accidents. Making matters even worse are pedestrians and bikers get so cocky and jump into the road and aren't defensive at all. *forehead smack*

I agree! Maybe this needs its own thread. All over Montrose and downtown Bethesda are these pedestrian cross walks. They’re a great idea, but one person ambles across, cars stop, as the cars begin moving another person starts ambling across, cars get frustrated. It’s a mess. It’s a great idea in theory - Look! We’re so pedestrian friendly! - but it’s just a bad mix of cars and pedestrians. And BTW, I think the SUV was speeding and is at fault in this particular thread.

In general, there needs to be a cultural adjustment to the idea that roads are for everyone.

Also, if it's frustrating for you, when you drive in downtown Bethesda, to stop for pedestrians as legally required -- would walking be a possibility for you, instead? It can be much more convenient than driving.

PP here. Yes, when I lived in Bethesda, I walked everywhere. I actually prefer to walk, but I no longer live in Bethesda, and have stopped going because I think the driving and parking is a cluster. Bethesda wants to be walkable but there are too many cars and pedestrians and few lights. I have seen so many near misses of both cars and pedestrians.

How do "too many pedestrians" make a place LESS walkable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t bike on the street because I think it is dangerous but I am a frequent pedestrian.

I see this a lot when I am walking. You have to be a smart biker and pedestrian and not assume the cars see you and will stop. You have to confirm that they see you and are stopping before you go. Maybe the driver of the car is technically in the wrong for not stopping at a crosswalk but it’s better for you not to be injured!!

When walking - even when I have the right of way with a walk sign, I often see cars want to turn right on red. They look at the cars coming to their left but you need to confirm that they also see you crossing to their right before crossing.

Same if you’re walking / running on a street and you want to go across a street to the other side. Make sure if a car could turn left or right onto that street that they see you’re crossing and that you don’t both end up in the intersection at the same time.

Those are the two i see most frequently. I will think if I can think of any others.

I bike on a trail but have to cross the street several times. This has happened to me so many times it is scary. People wanting to turn right on red blow through the crosswalk without stopping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

For a child across that intersection, absolutely dismount. That's why I said walk your bike. Biking VERY slowly is ok too, but it's actually hard to bike very slowly. If you're crossing an intersection without a lot of traffic and you have a clear view all ways, biking at pedestrian speed or a little faster is OK. But a high-speed arterial like that when you apparently don't have a clear view of all the traffic? Walk your bike, grownup or adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, do you think this is some kind of college dorm room debate?

The cornerstone of safe biking is staying visible to cars and not getting yourself in a position where they'll run over you.

The issue with crosswalks comes up mainly in the context of sidewalk biking, for which I provided extensive links.

But I'll explain it again: when a bike (or scooter or other vehicle) comes off the sidewalk into the intersection (i.e., in a crosswalk) it is not visible to cars, because cars may not be able to see and don't expect to see something traveling at the speed of a bike in the crosswalk, and do not have time to stop. This applies equally to a bike path like in the video. Additionally, there are parked cars and trees and other obstacles that can make it hard for both bikers and car to see each other from the sidewalk. Thus, the advice is to either get off your bike and walk it across the crosswalk, or proceed VERY carefully and slowly if you are SURE that there are no cars approaching in any direction.

You keep saying that that's the advice. But who is providing this advice, besides you?

I posted a zillion links before. But here are some more. Again, they mostly discuss entering the intersection from a sidewalk or driveway, which is functionally similar as from a bike path in this case.

https://www.npr.org/2016/10/16/496865680/6-things-you-need-to-know-about-cycling-on-the-sidewalk
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bike-accidents-collisions-with-cars-29549-2.html
https://www.bicycleaccidentprevention.com/

None of these links advise people to walk their bicycles across intersections.

you just can't let this go, can you? I sincerely hope you're not actually out biking with your kids.

NP here. The advice I have seen is to cross at a pedestrian pace (because that is what drivers will be looking for) which does not mean dismounting. It looks like the family here was riding across at a pedestrian pace (and indeed, its hard for a young child to exceed such pace).

And to look, yes, but that does not mean waiting till there is no car traffic anywhere. Once the walker or biker is in the crosswalk, the driver is expected to stop (in Va, to yield).

Yes, the driver should stop, but many states (not sure about VA, MD and DC) also have rules requiring that pedestrians and bikes not launch themselves into intersections where the car does not have the time to stop. The driver can only stop if he actually sees you and has time to stop.