UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, you want victims to come forward? Then create an environment where they feel safe doing that. Vigorously oppose victim blaming, stop grilling women on what they were wearing or were they drinking, don't tolorate intimidation or harassment of victims, and create an environment where men are not only taught not to rape but not to prey on women. Otherwise, what's the point of coming forward, getting your life torn apart again, where there is almost no chance that justice will be done?

Seriously. Anyone who wonders why victims, traumatized women who have experienced a horrible violation, do not come forward need look no further than this thread. You posters who are so upset at the thought that this could be your son, don't you think that the parents of accused rapists feel that way too? Do you think that these boys come to Thanksgiving dinner at Grand,a's house with a popped collar and a key cup of roofied Coors? Of course you are sure your sons could never do this, but if you do not also teach your good sons to stand up for people being victimized right in front of them, to not bend to peer pressure to commit crimes and to believe someone who says they were assaulted, this will keep happening.

We have no reason to disbelieve this story other than our hope that it's not true. If the victim had a choice, so did everyone else. The 7 men who raped her chose to rape. Her friends chose to advise her not to report. The school chose a policy that does not encourage victims to pursue justice. You all are choosing to put more faith in a bunch of 20 year old frat boys' hard work to get into college over a young woman's reporting of the worst experience of her life. That's sad.

What are you talking about? Most people here absolutely believe what this girl went through, and are URGING HER TO COME FORWARD and press charges. No one is defending the frat boys who did this to her; we'd all like to see justice served and them thrown into jail, where they belong. But to make blanket statements about "our sons" and "all males" being capable of rape is astounding. Most boys and men would not only never dream of raping, they would also never simply stand by and watch as it was occurring. What's sad is painting every male as a potential rapist/psychopath. I choose to believe that most people in this world are good, including most men. Those who rape and abuse deserve to be punished to the fullest extent possible. But it is madness to assume males, simply by virtue of being male, are going to commit these crimes. I choose to give the good guys credit. And the bad guys will continue to go unpunished as long as victims refuse to come forward immediately.

Did we read the same thread? So much "IF this is true" and "some women are crazy" and "my son would never". If you don't think that that's EXACTLY why victims are reluctant to come forward, i don't know what to tell you. Every rape survivor I know has experienced that attitude, over and over. We give perpetrators the benefit of the doubt, on this thread in the form of "need evidence" and "if if if" as well as elsewhere in society, while victims are told to report, give evidence, explain, justify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Had the victim called an ambulance and done a rape kit and had photos taken I doubt she would have been put through the grinder. She would have had their DNA all over her. They would only need to go after one of the guys and he would immediately finger the other guys. Once that happens, there's no way the victim would be put through the grinder...because no one would assert that she volunteered to bang seven guys.

But now that so much time has passed and she didn't get any medical evidence, she's going to have an uphill battle. They can easily assert a defense that she's making this up. No eye witnesses beyond the rapists. And her "friends" aren't equipped to provide any useful evidence.

Jesus Christ. Did you read the article? Or any article about rape, ever? It happens ALL THE TIME.

And I'm not just talking about the failure of the justice system to successfully prosecute rapists, even when there is DNA evidence, although that is rampant. I'm talking about intimidation, shame, harassment and ostracism from the community, about being constantly accosted about the "validity" of her own behavior, about the "boys will be boys" culture that brushes rape off over and over and OVER again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, you want victims to come forward? Then create an environment where they feel safe doing that. Vigorously oppose victim blaming, stop grilling women on what they were wearing or were they drinking, don't tolorate intimidation or harassment of victims, and create an environment where men are not only taught not to rape but not to prey on women. Otherwise, what's the point of coming forward, getting your life torn apart again, where there is almost no chance that justice will be done?

Seriously. Anyone who wonders why victims, traumatized women who have experienced a horrible violation, do not come forward need look no further than this thread. You posters who are so upset at the thought that this could be your son, don't you think that the parents of accused rapists feel that way too? Do you think that these boys come to Thanksgiving dinner at Grand,a's house with a popped collar and a key cup of roofied Coors? Of course you are sure your sons could never do this, but if you do not also teach your good sons to stand up for people being victimized right in front of them, to not bend to peer pressure to commit crimes and to believe someone who says they were assaulted, this will keep happening.

We have no reason to disbelieve this story other than our hope that it's not true. If the victim had a choice, so did everyone else. The 7 men who raped her chose to rape. Her friends chose to advise her not to report. The school chose a policy that does not encourage victims to pursue justice. You all are choosing to put more faith in a bunch of 20 year old frat boys' hard work to get into college over a young woman's reporting of the worst experience of her life. That's sad.

What are you talking about? Most people here absolutely believe what this girl went through, and are URGING HER TO COME FORWARD and press charges. No one is defending the frat boys who did this to her; we'd all like to see justice served and them thrown into jail, where they belong. But to make blanket statements about "our sons" and "all males" being capable of rape is astounding. Most boys and men would not only never dream of raping, they would also never simply stand by and watch as it was occurring. What's sad is painting every male as a potential rapist/psychopath. I choose to believe that most people in this world are good, including most men. Those who rape and abuse deserve to be punished to the fullest extent possible. But it is madness to assume males, simply by virtue of being male, are going to commit these crimes. I choose to give the good guys credit. And the bad guys will continue to go unpunished as long as victims refuse to come forward immediately.

Did we read the same thread? So much "IF this is true" and "some women are crazy" and "my son would never". If you don't think that that's EXACTLY why victims are reluctant to come forward, i don't know what to tell you. Every rape survivor I know has experienced that attitude, over and over. We give perpetrators the benefit of the doubt, on this thread in the form of "need evidence" and "if if if" as well as elsewhere in society, while victims are told to report, give evidence, explain, justify.

Exactly. And, if a rape victim is REALLY LUCKY and was ganged raped and beaten, we might believe her if there's DNA evidence because no one would voluntarily sleep with 7 guys. But if only one guy rapes you, guess you're SOL.

[Anonymous]

I think it's spalling that these rapes were reported to the school in some cases, according to the WashPost, and the school did nothing. Chose to cover it up. Screw UVA. Remove the frats for the rest of the school year.
PSU was stripped of so much, let's see UVA pay for their school coverup as well. Equal punishment for equal sexual assault cover ups.

[Anonymous]

Wrong, pp. It's fairly obvious that she will have an uphill battle now IF charges are ever filed since there's essentially no evidence. And this would not be the case had she (or her friends) called an ambulance.

[Anonymous]

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.

Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.

[Anonymous]

To the poster who asked, "what if that were your son," I ask: what if that were your daughter? What if it were you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Had the victim called an ambulance and done a rape kit and had photos taken I doubt she would have been put through the grinder. She would have had their DNA all over her. They would only need to go after one of the guys and he would immediately finger the other guys. Once that happens, there's no way the victim would be put through the grinder...because no one would assert that she volunteered to bang seven guys.

But now that so much time has passed and she didn't get any medical evidence, she's going to have an uphill battle. They can easily assert a defense that she's making this up. No eye witnesses beyond the rapists. And her "friends" aren't equipped to provide any useful evidence.

Oh, if only the 19 year old girl away from home for the first time who had just been gang raped for three hours, beaten, thrown through a glass table, and tortured into a fuge state had had the presence of mind to think strategically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wrong, pp. It's fairly obvious that she will have an uphill battle now IF charges are ever filed since there's essentially no evidence. And this would not be the case had she (or her friends) called an ambulance.

She would have an uphill battle either way. And it really would not have been the case if those boys -- including the non-raping frat members -- had been raised to respect women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Had the victim called an ambulance and done a rape kit and had photos taken I doubt she would have been put through the grinder. She would have had their DNA all over her. They would only need to go after one of the guys and he would immediately finger the other guys. Once that happens, there's no way the victim would be put through the grinder...because no one would assert that she volunteered to bang seven guys.

But now that so much time has passed and she didn't get any medical evidence, she's going to have an uphill battle. They can easily assert a defense that she's making this up. No eye witnesses beyond the rapists. And her "friends" aren't equipped to provide any useful evidence.

+1000
While it may be difficult to come forward (and immediately), it's the only way to provide concrete evidence. It's not hard to understand and I can't believe the lengths some are taking to insist that this just isn't feasible. What's the alternative, honestly? To come forward years later, when it's far less likely that anyone will believe you, there is absolutely no concrete evidence, and your life has been ruined from self-doubt and regret? This argument has gone round and round so many times, it's completely maddening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.

Here's the thing: Guys who were Phi Psi brothers at the time may not have been in the room, but they were "brothers" with the guys who were. This "brotherhood" system is built around a one-for-all, all-for-one attitude. That's supposedly its signal virtue and attraction.

They know these guys, they support these guys. And if the victim's account is correct, this was hardly a one-off: it was apparently a rite of passage for the rapists. (She reported that one of her assailants whom she knew from class didn't want to go through with it, but was told that he had to, "we had to do it too" (or words to that effect)).

So if some of them get identified and publicly shamed, and it turns out they weren't the rapists (at least this time), I'm not that upset about it. Let them explain the actions of their "brothers." If that's hard for them, or creates embarrassment in their current lives or careers, they can blame their "brothers," not Nancy Drew here.

The whole system is about sharing triumph, and revelry, and whatever credit they claim. Let them share the shame as well.

I have to believe there are text messages between the fraternity members that allude to the rape. I would think that those text messages could be dug up somehow by someone like Anonymous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of them won't rape, but plenty of them will stand by or will blame the victim afterwards.

Did you read the RS article? Did you see the part about the songs they were singing? I'd like to hear the part about how male UVa students united to condemn the songs and the attitude behind them. But I can't, because it didn't happen.

The social environment for college women is hostile. Those songs were disgusting. This is not limited to UVA. College guys love to make up barbaric chants to label women sluts any chance they get. In Boston the girls from Simmons were called "Simmons mattress". From Pine Manor they were called "Pine Mattress". The girls going from Wellesley to MIT or Harvard arrived on the "f**k truck". I think they mentioned the lovely chant from Yale bros "No means Yes, and Yes means anal." All around them everyone is drunk. No one dates, they only hookup and act like sex is just an act where you can turn all emotions off. After they graduate they arrive in cities like DC where other women look down on them if they want serious relationships that could lead to marriage. This is all nuts. Young women in their 20's have hormones and emotions that are craving male attention because it is biological but they also hope that they can make emotional connections at the same time. Instead the environment has men trying to use women any chance they get, everyone is drunk and high and then they chase money and careers. The sexual revolution certainly has a dark side where men just find another way to put women down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Had the victim called an ambulance and done a rape kit and had photos taken I doubt she would have been put through the grinder. She would have had their DNA all over her. They would only need to go after one of the guys and he would immediately finger the other guys. Once that happens, there's no way the victim would be put through the grinder...because no one would assert that she volunteered to bang seven guys.

But now that so much time has passed and she didn't get any medical evidence, she's going to have an uphill battle. They can easily assert a defense that she's making this up. No eye witnesses beyond the rapists. And her "friends" aren't equipped to provide any useful evidence.

+1000
While it may be difficult to come forward (and immediately), it's the only way to provide concrete evidence. It's not hard to understand and I can't believe the lengths some are taking to insist that this just isn't feasible. What's the alternative, honestly? To come forward years later, when it's far less likely that anyone will believe you, there is absolutely no concrete evidence, and your life has been ruined from self-doubt and regret? This argument has gone round and round so many times, it's completely maddening.

It's not unfeasible, but the system as it is cannot stand, and given how broken the system is, it's completely unjust to say that the only way rape will end is if more women force themselves through. And again, have you seen the conviction rate? Most DAs won't prosecute, the ones that do rarely get a conviction, the ones that do almost always get a slap on the wrist at sentencing. The criminal justice system is simply inadequate to stop rape culture. Saying "oh, just report it" is wishful thinking. It feels better to think that if only women would report rape, then things would "get better" without you having to do anything yourself. But it's just not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wrong, pp. It's fairly obvious that she will have an uphill battle now IF charges are ever filed since there's essentially no evidence. And this would not be the case had she (or her friends) called an ambulance.

She would have an uphill battle either way. And it really would not have been the case if those boys -- including the non-raping frat members -- had been raised to respect women.

This, but raising good men includes the university's education of those men. Every university should be telling its young men that it will NOT tolerate that kind of behavior. Universities should advise students that if they are accused of rape they will be suspended immediately, pending an investigation by the local police. If no charges are filed, or you are found not guilty, you will be readmitted.

If a student is falsely accused, he may seek a civil suit against his accuser(s), after the rape charges have been cleared.

If young men are worried about being falsely accused, then they will have to police their behavior. You know the drill, because it's what we tell our young women: don't get drunk with women you don't know, don't go in a room alone with someone if you've been drinking, don't have sex if you've been drinking, use a buddy system at parties to monitor each other's safety, first and second dates should be in public places.

[Anonymous]

That's my point pp...and I'm not blaming the victim. Rather, I'm blaming the anti-rape advocates who have failed to equip women with basic knowledge on how to navigate the aftermath of rape...coupled with a national advocacy group that holds their hands through the criminal proceedings.