UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, you want victims to come forward? Then create an environment where they feel safe doing that. Vigorously oppose victim blaming, stop grilling women on what they were wearing or were they drinking, don't tolorate intimidation or harassment of victims, and create an environment where men are not only taught not to rape but not to prey on women. Otherwise, what's the point of coming forward, getting your life torn apart again, where there is almost no chance that justice will be done?

Seriously. Anyone who wonders why victims, traumatized women who have experienced a horrible violation, do not come forward need look no further than this thread. You posters who are so upset at the thought that this could be your son, don't you think that the parents of accused rapists feel that way too? Do you think that these boys come to Thanksgiving dinner at Grand,a's house with a popped collar and a key cup of roofied Coors? Of course you are sure your sons could never do this, but if you do not also teach your good sons to stand up for people being victimized right in front of them, to not bend to peer pressure to commit crimes and to believe someone who says they were assaulted, this will keep happening.

We have no reason to disbelieve this story other than our hope that it's not true. If the victim had a choice, so did everyone else. The 7 men who raped her chose to rape. Her friends chose to advise her not to report. The school chose a policy that does not encourage victims to pursue justice. You all are choosing to put more faith in a bunch of 20 year old frat boys' hard work to get into college over a young woman's reporting of the worst experience of her life. That's sad.

What are you talking about? Most people here absolutely believe what this girl went through, and are URGING HER TO COME FORWARD and press charges. No one is defending the frat boys who did this to her; we'd all like to see justice served and them thrown into jail, where they belong. But to make blanket statements about "our sons" and "all males" being capable of rape is astounding. Most boys and men would not only never dream of raping, they would also never simply stand by and watch as it was occurring. What's sad is painting every male as a potential rapist/psychopath. I choose to believe that most people in this world are good, including most men. Those who rape and abuse deserve to be punished to the fullest extent possible. But it is madness to assume males, simply by virtue of being male, are going to commit these crimes. I choose to give the good guys credit. And the bad guys will continue to go unpunished as long as victims refuse to come forward immediately.

Jessica Williams said this better than I ever could: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/z2b627/the-fault-in-our-schools But I thought we'd moved past the #notallmen portion of the debate. Sigh.

Look, if we could target only future rapists, we would. But, unfortunately, they are not born with giant "Rs" on their foreheads. So the only way to get the message out to potential future rapists (and current ones) that this will not be tolerated is to teach all men to fully respect women, to refuse to encourage a situation where women are seen like walking vaginal targets and are instead treated like people, and yes, to flat out stop rape. And as an added bonus, this teaches all men, not just the potential rapists, to respect women, which is a good thing. WIN-WIN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

Not everyone will do bad things. Everyone could, though. So let's act proactively and teach all men how to prevent rape, AS PART OF an overall approach to address this issue.

[Anonymous]

Most of them won't rape, but plenty of them will stand by or will blame the victim afterwards.

Did you read the RS article? Did you see the part about the songs they were singing? I'd like to hear the part about how male UVa students united to condemn the songs and the attitude behind them. But I can't, because it didn't happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

So your solution is to keep forcing women through the meat grinder of our justice system over and over again, facing doubt, estrangement, humiliation and harassment with almost no likelihood of justice over and over and over again until...what, exactly?

[Anonymous]

Here's an interview with Dean Nicole Eramo - the woman in charge of the UVA sexual assault investigations - that was done before the Rolling Stone article came out. In it she admits that students who admit to sexually assault are treated more leniently than anyone else! They are suspended from UVA, but never expelled (although cheaters are expelled all the time). This is the root of the problem - by treating rape as a lesser infraction and not the violent crime it is, it's seen as "not so bad" and something that shouldn't be reported or punished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqjrpWHIoyU

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a son who is going to be educating him consistently and repeatedly on the concept of consent.

Likewise. So horrified by the stories of the parents threatening to sue the accusers. I assume the parents believe their sons are innocent? I pray that I can teach my child to treat women with respect. I agree that all moms should caution their daughters about the real dangers that are out there, but let's not pretend that the real problem and the critical education lies with those of us raising the men who grow up to either treat women well or abuse them.

Boys need to be taught girls giving up sex freely may signal an issue. They should not take every offer, to be selective with sexual partners. I think this is where the fine line starts and it is a moving line.

So when the girls says yes, the boy should be taught to say no? Does the girl ever have any responsibility in your scenario?

I would love to hear the answer to this. According to all of you, boys are always - ALWAYS - to blame. What about all of the good guys out there who would never in a million years hurt a woman? Let's hear it for those guys. May they never be falsely accused. And no, I'm not talking about the gang rapists in question here.

I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

I tell my daughter, if a guy you hardly know asks you to have sex say no.

Here is the part I don't understand people don't get.

I tell my son, if a girl you hardly know asks you to have sex say no.

I also tell them it is depraved to be having sex at a party. I have parties all the time and my guests do not go to a room and have sex. I do not disappear during the party and have sex. This is not how normal people in society act.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You all need to stop playing Nancy Drew and trying to post frat members names. What if that was your son and he was innocent?

+1
I really can't believe someone has posted names and pictures. What these guys did was heinous, but right now we have no idea who they were. Stop the witchhunt until there are more facts.

Where did she post pictures? Link?

They have been removed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

So your solution is to keep forcing women through the meat grinder of our justice system over and over again, facing doubt, estrangement, humiliation and harassment with almost no likelihood of justice over and over and over again until...what, exactly?

And your solution is to encourage women to stay silent, achieving... what, exactly??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

People deny climate change and the safety of vaccines, too. That doesn't make it true.

Humans (both men and women) are capable of great good and great evil. It's society's job to put structures and rules in place to encourage good and restrict evil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most of them won't rape, but plenty of them will stand by or will blame the victim afterwards.

Did you read the RS article? Did you see the part about the songs they were singing? I'd like to hear the part about how male UVa students united to condemn the songs and the attitude behind them. But I can't, because it didn't happen.

Has anyone here who went to UVA ever heard of this song quoted in the article? No one I know from the school (generations of people who have been in fraternities and attended a lot of football games over the years) has ever even heard of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another parent of a son who is going to be educating him consistently and repeatedly on the concept of consent.

Likewise. So horrified by the stories of the parents threatening to sue the accusers. I assume the parents believe their sons are innocent? I pray that I can teach my child to treat women with respect. I agree that all moms should caution their daughters about the real dangers that are out there, but let's not pretend that the real problem and the critical education lies with those of us raising the men who grow up to either treat women well or abuse them.

Boys need to be taught girls giving up sex freely may signal an issue. They should not take every offer, to be selective with sexual partners. I think this is where the fine line starts and it is a moving line.

So when the girls says yes, the boy should be taught to say no? Does the girl ever have any responsibility in your scenario?

I would love to hear the answer to this. According to all of you, boys are always - ALWAYS - to blame. What about all of the good guys out there who would never in a million years hurt a woman? Let's hear it for those guys. May they never be falsely accused. And no, I'm not talking about the gang rapists in question here.

I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

I tell my daughter, if a guy you hardly know asks you to have sex say no.

Here is the part I don't understand people don't get.

I tell my son, if a girl you hardly know asks you to have sex say no.

I also tell them it is depraved to be having sex at a party. I have parties all the time and my guests do not go to a room and have sex. I do not disappear during the party and have sex. This is not how normal people in society act.

I'd go even farther.

I'll be teaching my son that women were not put on this earth to be receptacles for his sexual energy. Sex is not like hunting -- he is not to treat women as targets or prey or marks in a con. They are people, and sex is something you share voluntarily with someone who is enthusiastically excited about having sex with you. No one owes him sex, and if I ever see him treat a woman like that, I will tie his dick in a knot.

Not only that, but I am teaching my son to stand up for others, and that I fully expect him to speak up when other people are being dehumanized. That can be school bullying, cat-calling, sexual assault, or rape.

I don't think my son would ever rape. But this is the kind of man I want to raise. I don't understand how anyone could have a problem with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another thought: teach your kids NOT to accept drinks from men. Teach your kids NOT to go to Fraternity parties.

How about focusing on teaching your sons to respect women? These are our sons doing these acts.

Those were not my sons. Blaming all boys/men because of the heinous actions of a few is reprehensible.

Go read Phil Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect" about the Stanford Prison Experiment and then get back to us. Good people (men or women) can do awful things if organization structures aren't in place to prevent them. In big societies, it's a constant risk that has to be guarded against.

Sorry, but I reject the assumption that any boy or man, given the right circumstance, will rape. Some will, but they are not the majority.

So your solution is to keep forcing women through the meat grinder of our justice system over and over again, facing doubt, estrangement, humiliation and harassment with almost no likelihood of justice over and over and over again until...what, exactly?

And your solution is to encourage women to stay silent, achieving... what, exactly??

No, women shouldn't stay silent. But the way to encourage women to speak up is not to leave them to suffer unless they force themselves through a punishing, inadequate judicial system after they've been psychologiaclly destroyed with little hope of justice. As I posted above:

Ok, you want victims to come forward? Then create an environment where they feel safe doing that. Vigorously oppose victim blaming, stop grilling women on what they were wearing or were they drinking, don't tolorate intimidation or harassment of victims, and create an environment where men are not only taught not to rape but not to prey on women. Otherwise, what's the point of coming forward, getting your life torn apart again, where there is almost no chance that justice will be done?

And, as I posted above:

Not everyone will do bad things. Everyone could, though. So let's act proactively and teach all men how to prevent rape, AS PART OF an overall approach to address this issue.

And (me again):

Look, if we could target only future rapists, we would. But, unfortunately, they are not born with giant "Rs" on their foreheads. So the only way to get the message out to potential future rapists (and current ones) that this will not be tolerated is to teach all men to fully respect women, to refuse to encourage a situation where women are seen like walking vaginal targets and are instead treated like people, and yes, to flat out stop rape. And as an added bonus, this teaches all men, not just the potential rapists, to respect women, which is a good thing. WIN-WIN.

[Anonymous]

Had the victim called an ambulance and done a rape kit and had photos taken I doubt she would have been put through the grinder. She would have had their DNA all over her. They would only need to go after one of the guys and he would immediately finger the other guys. Once that happens, there's no way the victim would be put through the grinder...because no one would assert that she volunteered to bang seven guys.

But now that so much time has passed and she didn't get any medical evidence, she's going to have an uphill battle. They can easily assert a defense that she's making this up. No eye witnesses beyond the rapists. And her "friends" aren't equipped to provide any useful evidence.

[Anonymous]

Did you read the RS article? Did you see the part about the songs they were singing? I'd like to hear the part about how male UVa students united to condemn the songs and the attitude behind them. But I can't, because it didn't happen.

Has anyone here who went to UVA ever heard of this song quoted in the article? No one I know from the school (generations of people who have been in fraternities and attended a lot of football games over the years) has ever even heard of it.

The song begins, "From Rugby Road to Vinegar Hill," and it is very difficult to imagine anyone who has attended UVA and not heard it. It is learned in the first year dorms and sung lustily at parties, football games, and drunken stumbles down Rugby Road. Every one of my many UVA alum friends (almost none of them alums of the Greek system) could recite the first 4 or 5 verses on demand right now (nearly 30 years out).

Apparently the youngsters have added on many new verses in recent years that are much more graphic and disgusting, and that older alums wouldn't know. But the song in general? If your friends have never even heard of it, they either went to a different school, or their memories are absolutely obliterated.