Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Isn’t the debate over how young is it appropriate to engage in this risky, major surgery?

Adults can obviously do whatever they want.

Some of the posters here assert that gender identity is solely a manifestation of mental illness. So, presumably they are also opposed to medical transitions by adults.

I am one of those people. I do believe it is a mental illness. But I also work in a mental health facility and I don’t stigmatize mental illness like many others do. I don’t think trans people are “less than” if they have a mental disorder causing them to feel the way they do. I don’t think any of my patients are “less than.” And we have the extreme cases. They are all individuals deserving of compassion. And proper treatment.
I think there is a reason that people need extensive mental health counseling before they can transition. I am 100% opposed to adolescents transitioning. Adults can do whatever they please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Did you miss how they treated J.K Rowling? This isn’t a meek little group, Jeff.

Yes, they were mean to J.K. Rowling. Unlike their anti-trans opponents, they have not passed laws to restrict her rights. She has not been murdered simply due to her identity as have many trans people.

The vast majority of trans people who are subjected to violence are either in the sex trade and attacked by customers or are abused by their domestic partners. There’s no epidemic of random stranger homocide against trans people.

I don't know the research on this, but I was with a friend of mine who is a transgender woman. We were walking down the street, both in business attire and someone tossed a can at her head. I can't imagine the bravery it takes to live as your authentic self, only to be mocked, ridiculed and abused by people for existing.

Also, $*#( J.K. Rowling

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Increasingly, Europeans question doing the surgery to *children*.

And most trans children aren’t having surgery. Gender affirming care does not mean surgery for the vast majority of trans kids.

Hormones are permanently damaging as well. The issue isn’t just surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Isn’t the debate over how young is it appropriate to engage in this risky, major surgery?

Adults can obviously do whatever they want.

Some of the posters here assert that gender identity is solely a manifestation of mental illness. So, presumably they are also opposed to medical transitions by adults.

I am one of those people. I do believe it is a mental illness. But I also work in a mental health facility and I don’t stigmatize mental illness like many others do. I don’t think trans people are “less than” if they have a mental disorder causing them to feel the way they do. I don’t think any of my patients are “less than.” And we have the extreme cases. They are all individuals deserving of compassion. And proper treatment.
I think there is a reason that people need extensive mental health counseling before they can transition. I am 100% opposed to adolescents transitioning. Adults can do whatever they please.

Your patients are incredibly lucky to have you.
Thank you for sharing your expertise.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

Jeff, I was the OP of this thread and am not the person you were replying to. However, as I noted in the first thread, I am one of many allies who fear that the bullying, demands, and threats, which sometimes include threats of violence, of the most extreme trans activists are causing more people to support restrictions on the rights of trans people and other members of the LGBTQIA+ community. Nothing about the tone of their extreme advocacy supports "trans people simply being able to live their lives in peace with the same rights as everyone else." Maybe it is just a small group whose voices are most amplified on social media, but that's who people hear and mistakenly believe speaks for all trans people. When Middle America hears threats of violence against anyone who does not 100% support these activist bullies, it breeds hate and garners support for harmful legislation. Here is one trans person's perspective on this:

https://www.newsweek.com/trans-bathroom-activist-lgbtq-women-1800624

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

Jeff, I was the OP of this thread and am not the person you were replying to. However, as I noted in the first thread, I am one of many allies who fear that the bullying, demands, and threats, which sometimes include threats of violence, of the most extreme trans activists are causing more people to support restrictions on the rights of trans people and other members of the LGBTQIA+ community. Nothing about the tone of their extreme advocacy supports "trans people simply being able to live their lives in peace with the same rights as everyone else." Maybe it is just a small group whose voices are most amplified on social media, but that's who people hear and mistakenly believe speaks for all trans people. When Middle America hears threats of violence against anyone who does not 100% support these activist bullies, it breeds hate and garners support for harmful legislation. Here is one trans person's perspective on this:

https://www.newsweek.com/trans-bathroom-activist-lgbtq-women-1800624

Hypermagnifying “activist bullies” reads as RWNJ propaganda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Isn’t the debate over how young is it appropriate to engage in this risky, major surgery?

Adults can obviously do whatever they want.

Some of the posters here assert that gender identity is solely a manifestation of mental illness. So, presumably they are also opposed to medical transitions by adults.

I am one of those people. I do believe it is a mental illness. But I also work in a mental health facility and I don’t stigmatize mental illness like many others do. I don’t think trans people are “less than” if they have a mental disorder causing them to feel the way they do. I don’t think any of my patients are “less than.” And we have the extreme cases. They are all individuals deserving of compassion. And proper treatment.
I think there is a reason that people need extensive mental health counseling before they can transition. I am 100% opposed to adolescents transitioning. Adults can do whatever they please.

Are you the “nurse” who has posted on prior threads?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Increasingly, Europeans question doing the surgery to *children*.

And most trans children aren’t having surgery. Gender affirming care does not mean surgery for the vast majority of trans kids.

But hyperfocusing on that makes for excellent fearmongering!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Almost the entire medical field supports gender affirming care.”

This is simply not true. European medical societies have pulled back from the treatment plans still seen in the US. Our medical societies are victims of institutional capture. The AAP was asked by members to review the evidence and they refuse. Read this open letter from Genspect on the issue - https://genspect.org/an-open-letter-to-the-american-academy-of-pediatrics/

Check out SEGM’s work as well. https://segm.org/ You can’t hide behind the statement that this is accepted practice in the medical field. It’s not. It’s not happening in Europe any more and there are many concerned practitioners in the US who are silenced by the organizations that are supposed to represent them.

There are billions of Pharma dollars behind this https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers The similarities with the opioid scandal are notable.

These seem like totally legit sources to explain your conspiracy theory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if it isn’t a mental health issue, it’s considered cosmetic and therefor should not be covered by insurance

Circumcision is covered, so is breast reconstruction, so is a million other things but we cover it. Why aren’t you outraged about that?

Breast reconstruction isn’t covered for women who mistakenly believed they were trans as teens and had mastectomies.

Way to miss the point. Reconstructions aren’t medically necessary for women who had cancer either. We cover them because we know how important it is for a woman to feel like a woman.

Because there is an obvious biological component to being a woman that induces certain feelings that no biological man could ever experience or imagine.

Was that your experience as a transgender woman?

Are you saying a trans woman knows what it feels like to menstruate? To go through post pardum depression? To have a miscarriage? To have hot flashes? Please explain.

I’m saying you have no idea what it’s like to be a transgender woman.

And FYI those experiences do not define women.

And what feelings exactly do trans women have that make them women? I get that this is an incendiary question but isn’t it a logical one?

Do you ask all women that question?

There are no universal “feelings” for being a woman.

That’s because being a woman is defined by chromosomes and biology- not “feelings.”

You’re referring to sex.

Here you go:

No sweetheart I’m not. Sex, chromosomes and biology define a woman, which is simply an adult human female. There is no such thing as gender, except in the realm of languages

Are all of the bigots this ignorant?

https://www.who.int/health-topics/gender#tab=tab_1
“Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.”

So my sincere question is - if gender is defined by norms, behaviors and roles, why does a transgender male need to have his breasts removed? They are merely a biological part of their anatomy. It seems like that makes a person transsex- they want the biological anatomy of the sex they identify with.

Anyone?

Most transgender males do not need to have their breasts removed. Most transitions are purely social. How people transition (most transitions are not medical) and their reasons for doing so are personal and each individual has their own reasons for doing so. None of us can answer as to "why" on their behalf.

Thank you for you answer Jeff. I get that it is an individual decision for everyone. I guess I am stuck on the people who have gender affirming surgery. Because it’s not really gender affirming, is is biological sex affirming. If people want to say that sex and gender are two different things, this muddies the water for me. I just don’t get it.

Why do you need to get it? Why can’t you let people figure it out themselves. Why do you feel the need to be the arbiter of other people’s lives.

It’s ok if you don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

How about those who detransition, but then regret it and re-transition? Do they have stories to tell and do you think their voices are important for the debate? Do you think they should be promoted similarly?

YES, of course they have voices, too. Of course!

I think everyone involved should have their voices heard. It’s odd that you would think I’d want to silence any voices. I never indicated that I support silencing contrary opinions….like many activists do.

When you take up all of the oxygen about detransitioners then you are effectively silencing the vast majority of transgender people.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Saying that some doctors have unethically treated people who later detrans is *not* saying they are conspiring to trick people.

That’s a leap.

You talked about "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors". In other words, multiple unethical doctors are trying to convince parents to agree to unnecessary care (in your interpretation). What is the difference between that and "conspiring to trick people"?

DP. That’s a really disingenuous interpretation. Frankly I expect better from you than this.

Everyone reading can see both your words and my interpretation of them and come to their own conclusion. If you don't think that doctors are conspiring to trick parents, but you do believe that "unethical doctors" are doing something which "parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against", please explain what you actually mean?

You of all people should know what “dp” means and that I’m not the person you were engaging with or who said that. But I agree with that person’s position.

There are medical professionals who will ignore a parent’s concern and hesitation about medical treatment for a child’s gender dysphoria. That may be motivated by genuine concern for the child, by feeling pressure from their administration or colleagues, or by the financial remuneration they will receive for continuing treatment.

To say they are trying to “trick” the parent implies they believe it is the wrong treatment and are prescribing it anyway. I don’t think that’s what pp is saying. The issue is that they willfully refuse to consider other causes for the gender dysphoria, ignore parental concerns, and proceed with medical treatment that may ultimately not be in the child’s best interest. Calling this a “trick” derails the conversation and ignores the larger issues at play.

There are apparently two posters accusing me of misinterpreting the statement about "unethical doctors" and now both of them are claiming they didn't post the message that said that. So, I went back to check and it is true that it wasn't you who wrote that. But, the other poster, who actually did write it, is also denying it for some reason. I apologize for confusing the two of you.

But, you ignored the primary point of the post that led to this diversion. If you believe that all voices should be heard, then you can set an example for all of us. When you post about those who detransition, be sure to mention how they are exploited by those who are anti-trans and that some of them reverse their decision again and retransition.

This is my reply to that.

Anonymous wrote:The reason that detransitioners are embraced solely by awful republicans with ulterior motives is because everyone else tries to silence them.

What other groups support them? Who else is allowing them share their stories? You see it here in this thread that parents who are trying to stand up for themselves against unethical doctors are called liars. They’re shunned.

This is why I say trans activists should embrace them. If your goal is to ensure proper trans care, those detransitioners who are treated poorly by unethical doctors or whomever have an important voice, too.

Yes, I spend time in r/detrans. I tell you that only to indicate that these people are real with real stories and real pain and real voices.

They have nowhere to go. They were once trans. They matter, too.

Yes, some people “retransition.” Is it because they are constantly threatened by activists? Is it because the only ones standing up for them are republicans?

I can’t help but wonder.

It is simply amazing how much power you attribute to a very marginalized population. In the face of an entire political party and several state governments attempting to restrict their rights, a group armed with little more than Twitter accounts is able to convince people to transition and then bully them into retransitioning when they stray. Yet, we should not let the word "conspiracy" escape our lips.

Jeff, I was the OP of this thread and am not the person you were replying to. However, as I noted in the first thread, I am one of many allies who fear that the bullying, demands, and threats, which sometimes include threats of violence, of the most extreme trans activists are causing more people to support restrictions on the rights of trans people and other members of the LGBTQIA+ community. Nothing about the tone of their extreme advocacy supports "trans people simply being able to live their lives in peace with the same rights as everyone else." Maybe it is just a small group whose voices are most amplified on social media, but that's who people hear and mistakenly believe speaks for all trans people. When Middle America hears threats of violence against anyone who does not 100% support these activist bullies, it breeds hate and garners support for harmful legislation. Here is one trans person's perspective on this:

https://www.newsweek.com/trans-bathroom-activist-lgbtq-women-1800624

I'm not even sure where to begin with this. Are there others groups whose rights should be decided by the behavior of their most extreme members? Should we decide the rights of cis people based on the actions of the most extreme cis people?

This is another case of ignoring the forest and, instead, focusing on a few specific trees. Has anyone been killed or physically injured because of their anti-trans views? We know that transpeople are killed fairly routinely simply for being trans. What is the reaction? Very commonly like the poster above who claimed that they are simply sex workers. Even if true, they are not killed for being sex workers but for being trans sex workers. But, are we really excusing the murders of sex workers?

Yes, some trans people are loud and belligerent. But, they are not passing laws to restrict the rights of others. They are not waging political campaigns on platforms based on hating others. Are a few loudmouths really the issue here?

I can easily imagine you a few decades earlier claiming that you support gay rights but you are really concerned that the activists in ACT UP and Queer Nation are turning off middle America. What with all their disruptions and shoving in our faces that they are here and they are queer and that we should get used to it?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:
This fixation on outlier cases that are not representative of reality should be familiar to anyone who follows the abortion debate. Abortion opponents routinely highlight late-term abortions despite their rarity in order to justify strict abortion restrictions.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

One thing that strike me funny is the theory that goes: f2m transgender peopl are really women trying to escape the systemic misogyny of mainstream culture. It's usually paired with a theory they there is noonsustemict misogyny in mainstream culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One thing that strike me funny is the theory that goes: f2m transgender peopl are really women trying to escape the systemic misogyny of mainstream culture. It's usually paired with a theory they there is noonsustemict misogyny in mainstream culture.

Oh look. A clueless transplainer.